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  #21  
Old 08.12.2020, 21:53
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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Because this man comes into her private space?

It's very different from someone working in a bar giving you a note, or someone at a hobby group meeting.

Would it be okay for a doctor to give you such a note after examining you?

Two extremes of course but I think this could be seen as inappropriate.
Its actually frightening that this needs to be explained to some people.
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  #22  
Old 08.12.2020, 22:02
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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Its actually frightening that this needs to be explained to some people.
Frightening is that you immediately suggested to report the guy to his employer.

Can we please accept that people can (try to) flirt in their work environments and that as long as there is nothing aggressive we should all be able to handle this as adults (which of course includes the guy being able to handle a push back)?
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Old 08.12.2020, 22:04
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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Today something really weird happened to me . I was asleep in my apartment at the time when janitor men come, then I woke up from his door knock. He just wanted to tell me that that there is no room cleaning today- only kitchen cleaning. Me, half asleep half awaken, led him to my stove asking him not to turn it off because I was stewing something.

Before he left, he gave me a note saying

"Many regards!
House keeping [his name].
[his number]
Du bist sehr sympatisch!!!"

and then giggle with another janitor Does anyone have a clue what he means or wants? I looked up the meaning of 'sympatisch' and it just means 'nice/friendly', so perhaps he just wanted to be friends (???)

Maybe a bit more context- the janitor men are already uncles in 50's I think. They are sent by my landlord to clean the apartment every week. I already saw him 4-5 times so far, and we chatted a bit while he cleaned.
This is how porn movies start.
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Old 08.12.2020, 22:11
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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This is how porn movies start.
BAD porn movies.

Tom
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  #25  
Old 08.12.2020, 22:17
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

I did clearly state that I don't believe he should lose his job. We don't know anything about the OP, if she felt truly unsafe, she would be well within her rights to report it and not have done anything wrong. The boundless self-confidence of some men does not give them the right to overstep professional boundaries, especially not in this sensitive context.

The fact that the OP is considering hiding behind a fictitious man to keep herself safe should give everyone pause. Why does she think that a simple no from a woman without giving a justification (because there is really none needed! Zero! "No." is a complete sentence.) is not sufficient? Well, because it usually isn't. For some effed up reason, a woman has to turn herself into "someone else's property", albeit in this case fictionally, in order to have unwanted interest to cease. And even that is not a dead cert, cue the competitive types.

The thing is: Women don't owe interested men sh*t (and vice versa). Courtesy if approached respectfully, sure. But it is the man's (or woman's) choice to push for a change in the relationship dynamic and it is the woman's (or man's) to either accept or refuse. A refusal should, in turn, be accepted. No usually actually means no (I appreciate cultural nuances apply here, but in a Central European context, No is No). We are not children trying to get out of eating some unfamiliar food you know we will definitely like. And while there may be exceptions as mentioned before, please stop assuming that you are so uniquely special as to have that exception apply.

I'm sure one of our resident mansplainers or misogynists will be along promptly and either spectacularly miss the point/make it about them and that one time where [insert self-aggrandizing anecdote] or some vitriolic non sequitur about not listening to feminists. The latter demonstrating nicely what happens to the ego of men who think women are at their disposal and should be grateful for superficial attention.

If you don't want to risk losing your job, don't take unnecessary risks or overstep common sense boundaries while doing it.
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Old 08.12.2020, 22:26
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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Maybe a bit more context- the janitor men are already uncles in 50's I think. They are sent by my landlord to clean the apartment every week. I already saw him 4-5 times so far, and we chatted a bit while he cleaned.
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Also not sure if the note is actually from the older janitor or the young janitor. I never talked to the young janitor.
So are there two janitors, one older and one younger, but both are already uncles in their 50's?
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Old 08.12.2020, 22:29
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

Oh sorry for the confusion. The older one is in 50's and the younger one is a teenager probably 20's-30's (not sure because I never really looked at his face directly/clearly- he came quickly with the vacuum cleaner and got out quickly)
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  #28  
Old 08.12.2020, 22:38
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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I did clearly state that I don't believe he should lose his job. We don't know anything about the OP, if she felt truly unsafe, she would be well within her rights to report it and not have done anything wrong. The boundless self-confidence of some men does not give them the right to overstep professional boundaries, especially not in this sensitive context.

The fact that the OP is considering hiding behind a fictitious man to keep herself safe should give everyone pause. Why does she think that a simple no from a woman without giving a justification (because there is really none needed! Zero! "No." is a complete sentence.) is not sufficient? Well, because it usually isn't. For some effed up reason, a woman has to turn herself into "someone else's property", albeit in this case fictionally, in order to have unwanted interest to cease. And even that is not a dead cert, cue the competitive types.

The thing is: Women don't owe interested men sh*t (and vice versa). Courtesy if approached respectfully, sure. But it is the man's (or woman's) choice to push for a change in the relationship dynamic and it is the woman's (or man's) to either accept or refuse. A refusal should, in turn, be accepted. No usually actually means no (I appreciate cultural nuances apply here, but in a Central European context, No is No). We are not children trying to get out of eating some unfamiliar food you know we will definitely like. And while there may be exceptions as mentioned before, please stop assuming that you are so uniquely special as to have that exception apply.

I'm sure one of our resident mansplainers or misogynists will be along promptly and either spectacularly miss the point/make it about them and that one time where [insert self-aggrandizing anecdote] or some vitriolic non sequitur about not listening to feminists. The latter demonstrating nicely what happens to the ego of men who think women are at their disposal and should be grateful for superficial attention.

If you don't want to risk losing your job, don't take unnecessary risks or overstep common sense boundaries while doing it.
What are you talking about? A guy left his number on a piece of paper. That's it.
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  #29  
Old 08.12.2020, 22:43
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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BAD porn movies.

Tom
And how do the GOOD ones start?
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  #30  
Old 08.12.2020, 22:45
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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Frightening is that you immediately suggested to report the guy to his employer.

Can we please accept that people can (try to) flirt in their work environments and that as long as there is nothing aggressive we should all be able to handle this as adults (which of course includes the guy being able to handle a push back)?
This is very different to someone doing this at the copy machine versus in your own apartment where there is no one else around and if the worse were to arise, no one to help. Plus I already see the headlines.... Young girl dressed inappropriately led man on when he first made advances, was her fault for not reporting blah blah blah.

OP - if there is any slight uncomfortableness, please do not do pretense, just say to your landlord that the cleaning crew is great but you are much more comfortable with women around you and could he please switch? No reason to make a big negative report at this stage. Make it about you.
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Old 08.12.2020, 22:49
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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What are you talking about? A guy left his number on a piece of paper. That's it.
And the OP started thinking up some elaborate scenario involving a fictional man instead of thinking that a simple "please don't do that again, I'm not interested" should suffice.

Do you know how often a simple "Not interested" is greeted with "why, do you have a boyfriend? / are you a lesbian? / well, eff you, you stuck up cow, it was just for a bet anyway, you're way too ugly/fat/old for my taste"? Thinking back on the roughly 25 years of dudes hitting me, maybe 20% took a no graciously. Probably less. So rare is this that on one occasion it made me change my mind and go for a drink anyway. My gut instinct was correct though and there really were no sparks but imagine how low the bar is if simple courtesy upon rebuttal results in a second chance to make a first impression...

This is one of those situations where not being on the receiving end means you will never truly understand.
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Old 08.12.2020, 22:58
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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Because this man comes into her private space?

It's very different from someone working in a bar giving you a note, or someone at a hobby group meeting.

Would it be okay for a doctor to give you such a note after examining you?

Two extremes of course but I think this could be seen as inappropriate.
That is not relevant at all, man was a janitor, not gynecologists' and what he did was that he gave a friendly, mildly (in most innocent way) flirty note to a lady he found attractive/nice, nothing more. Just because he is cleaning ones apartment does not make it anymore inappropriate that if it would have been cashier in Coop or a Bartender. Bit silly possibly especially if there was no mutual flirt earlier but nothing to write landlord about (surprised some people in here did not recommend calling the cops )

Basic principle of human interaction is that we are responsible what we do, not how someone who we cannot know is over-hyper-sensitive, possibly takes it. If that type of friendly gesture makes one seriously so uncomfortable they have a need to escalate it and write songs about it, I am speechless.

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I did clearly state that I don't believe he should lose his job. We don't know anything about the OP, if she felt truly unsafe, she would be well within her rights to report it and not have done anything wrong. The boundless self-confidence of some men does not give them the right to overstep professional boundaries, especially not in this sensitive context.

If you don't want to risk losing your job, don't take unnecessary risks or overstep common sense boundaries while doing it.
As said, on reporting or losing job wise only thing that matters is what did this person do which was to give friendly note to a lady he found nice. He did not cross any professional or any other boundaries by doing so and claiming that he did is absurd. Yes it was maybe silly, maybe even bit weird but thats it.
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  #33  
Old 08.12.2020, 23:00
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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That is not relevant at all, man was a janitor, not gynecologists' and what he did was that he gave a friendly, mildly (in most innocent way) flirty note to a lady he found attractive/nice, nothing more. Just because he is cleaning ones apartment does not make it anymore inappropriate that if it would have been cashier in Coop or a Bartender. Bit silly possibly if there was no mutual flirt earlier but nothing to write landlord about (surprised some people in here did not recommend calling the cops )

Basic principle of human interaction is that we are responsible what we do, not how someone who we cannot know is over-hyper-sensitive, possibly takes it. If that type of friendly gesture makes one seriously so uncomfortable they have a need to escalate it and write songs about it, that person needs help and I mean this with all the friendliness.



As said, on reporting or losing job wise only thing that matters is what did this person do which was to give friendly note to a lady he found nice. He did not cross any professional or any other boundaries by doing so and claiming that he did is simply absurd.
Yeah you basically just proved most of Kittster points.....
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  #34  
Old 08.12.2020, 23:11
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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Yeah you basically just proved most of Kittster points.....
Entitled men usually do.

Have a look at this Tiktok on female reality, there are thousands of these and very few women have less than seven fingers down at the end. Safety matters, boundaries matter, and any man that doesn't get it clearly only has very few female friends or only very superficial friendships with them. Or he is also the slightly creepy one, which is why one would not tell him this sort of thing.

Leaving a note when you have been given access to a private space by someone other than the inhabitant of that space is not ok. Pick someone else.
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Old 08.12.2020, 23:38
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

I can understand why the OP feels 'creeped out' by it, especially with him being the janitor of her building. But I don't think there is any need to overreact toward him. At least not at this point. It sounds to me like it's a situation that can be easily remedied by just ignoring him.

I don't think what he did was as rude as, for example, construction workers whistling or "cat-calling" at women who walk by. And the sad reality is that some women do take that kind of thing as a compliment, and men know it. On social media, I use to often see women posting sexy photos of themselves, seeking compliments and attention from men. So I don't know... Maybe that guy mistakenly thinks that's the normal mindset among women or something and wrongly assumed that a woman would be flattered by what he did.
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Old 08.12.2020, 23:55
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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I can understand why the OP feels 'creeped out' by it, especially with him being the janitor of her building. But I don't think there is any need to overreact toward him. At least not at this point. It sounds to me like it's a situation that can be easily remedied by just ignoring him.
Agreed. I would take a picture of the note as proof just in case and then simply hand him the note back with a confident "Danke, aber ich habe kein Interesse und es ist nicht angebracht, Kunden solche Zettel zu geben." (Thanks, but I am not interested and it is not appropriate to give this kind of note to a client.) No need to explain why or do a cutesy voice to soften the blow, stand tall and be certain of what you are saying. Hopefully he will just grin ruefully and mutter something about "a man has to try" but leave it at that.

If he doesn't accept the answer and starts asking for an explanation, you can follow it up with "Ich hoffe es ist nicht notwendig, dies mithilfe des Vermieters zu klären." (I hope it is not necessary to clarify this matter with the landlord's help.). Again, be certain about it and don't giggle or go red in the face. Then walk off. If he didn't accept your initial no gracefully, I would definitely do as kri suggested and ask for a female cleaning crew. No need to throw him under the bus, unless he is really unpleasant, then go for it.
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Old 08.12.2020, 23:59
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

Dear Kittster,
Thank you very much for these response templates in German and for all your advices I will use them- and will make sure that next time they come clean my bedroom, I look at them doing their job from the common room (and not being alone with them behind a closed door). I also let my guy flatmates know about this, and kind of them, they will be around in time just in case
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Old 09.12.2020, 00:06
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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Dear Kittster,
Thank you very much for these response templates in German and for all your advices I will use them- and will make sure that next time they come clean my bedroom, I look at them doing their job from the common room (and not being alone with them behind a closed door). My flatmate will also be around.
You are most welcome and never let anyone talk you out of trusting your gut instinct. While this situation sounds more like someone really not thinking through the implications of their actions rather than any actual danger to yourself, I know of several stories where trusting "an uncomfortable feeling" turned out to be exactly right; and ones where ignoring them was life-changing in a very negative way.
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Who knows if this doesn’t end up in a romantic love story or a (god forbid) jerk keeping to bother you in your private zone. (Just to take it to an extreme and describe what I mean with different perceptions and different paths people go) [...]

I just want to wish you all the best for this flirty situation. (If I read correctly you wrote you’re not experienced with flirty situations. They are exciting, tricky, dangerous, with relish, ... all at the same time Be good and take care of yourself. That’s the most important.
ETA to point out that we are, in fact, now in the 21st Century and women are not wandering around on the constant lookout for Prince Charming, no matter where he may choose to surface. Also, could you BE any more patronising?
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  #39  
Old 09.12.2020, 00:12
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

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...when janitor men come, then I woke up from his door knock. ...
Before he left, he gave me a note saying

"Many regards!
House keeping [his name].
[his number]
Du bist sehr sympatisch!!!"

and then giggle with another janitor
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The older one is in 50's and the younger one is a teenager probably 20's-30's (not sure because I never really looked at his face directly/clearly- he came quickly with the vacuum cleaner and got out quickly)
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I am a 20's girl
This is my guess: the younger janitor, being of a similar age to you, might be interested in you, but not have had the courage to say so. I wonder whether the elder man gave you a slip of paper with the younger man's telephone number, perhaps because the younger one didn't have the courage to do so himself. That might explain their giggling.

If I were in your postion, I think I would do nothing at all, to start with, besides making a note of which day and time it was, and keeping the note safe and making a photo of it. Documentation done. Then, I would wait and see.

You seem certain that you are not interested in the older man, so you just need to decide for yourself whether or not you might be interested in getting to know the younger of the two.

In a week or two's time, one or the other of the men might ask you whether you've got the note, or intend to call, etc. If you're not interested in either, just answer: "Oh, no, I'm not going to call. I'm not interested." Make a note of when you did that, too. Then, wait and see.

If you are very clear, with no apologies, no excuses, no fake stories about not having time, or having a boyfriend, or being gay, but just honestly say: "No, I'm not interested," in many cases that will suffice.

The reply might be something like: "Oh, that's a pity, come one, be nice, he's all alone in Zurich and is looking for a girlfriend. Du bist sympathisch." Then, repeat: "I want you and him to understand: I am not interested. No, I will not call. No, I won't go out with him. No, I won't go out with you. Believe me. The answer is NO." In many more cases, that degree of flat statement will get the person to stop.

Some men will then still not get it, and will try again to persuade or to beg or to threaten or force you to say or do something. That is a bad experience, when it happens. Even so, although there are too many creeps in the world, and some very bad, inconsiderate, self-opinionated and even violent men, and it is horrible to be on the receiving end of what those men say or do, please remember that most men do not want to hurt, or use violence or force against women, and most men abhorr the thought that some men do so.

If you say no, and he doesn't just back off, and goes on to say more, repeat: "No!" and, if need be, with full authority, add: "Leave my flat, now!" If it becomes necessary to speak like that, then, yes, report this to your landlord.
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Old 09.12.2020, 00:21
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Re: confused- got a note from janitor man that I am 'sympatisch', plus his number

Hi Nasim,
Yes totally, I never had to deal with this kind of situation from someone I semi-know plus need to keep some work relation. It would have been easier to manage if the note is from just a stranger on the street or even from friends.
Also I grew up a culture that we would avoid direct rejections on anything, so I try to avoid a direct rejection as it might lead to collapse in the relation, if the other side cannot handle it.
But I think in this case it was necessary, and I will hand back the note next time I meet him without any town downplay like 'sorry, but ...'.
Thanks for your advices :-)
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