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  #101  
Old 28.08.2021, 11:40
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Pakistan is heaving with Afghans. Iran as well.

Taken from Swissinfo: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/switzer...ugees/46896730

Already by the end of 2020 there were 2.6 million registered Afghan refugees worldwide, meaning that more than one in ten refugees is Afghan, according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCRExternal link). They are mainly in neighbouring Pakistan and Iran, but there are also over 300,000 Afghan refugees on European soil.
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Population of Pakistan is 220m , Iran is 85m - you are simply wrong.Again.
2.3 million in Pakistan/Iran out of 305 million. 0.75%
And 0.3 million in Europe out of 747 million. 0.04%.

Maybe only heaving in comparison, but it appears that 87% of Afghans go to neighbouring countries. So that's alright then.
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  #102  
Old 28.08.2021, 11:51
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

Here's an article about why many Afghans support sharia and their interpretation of it.

It's a good read and helped me to understand the situation even further.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-h...on-sharia-law/
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  #103  
Old 28.08.2021, 12:09
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Parnell, she also omitted to mention.. how come the afgani refugees are not shelterned by the big sheiks of Arabia... or Qatar and Dubai or other nice places around in the region

Why arent afgani taken to Malaysia? It's a same distance from afganistan to malaysia as afg-switzerland
Of course - not to mention it is far more likely that the rape and sexual assault issues that have plagued their presence in Europe will continue - or worsen. But then demand for teachers and social services would fall - and that is I believe what is really at the heart of the apparent lack of logic on the other side of this argument. And so insults follow.
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  #104  
Old 28.08.2021, 12:55
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Here's an article about why many Afghans support sharia and their interpretation of it.

It's a good read and helped me to understand the situation even further.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-h...on-sharia-law/
Read the article but it's certainly not accurate in some respects :
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The Taliban are often interpreted in terms of extremist ideology, but offering an alternative legal system, superior to the official one, is a classic insurgent strategy seen in numerous other places. The IRA did it during the Irish war of independence.
This is simply wrong - the "IRA courts" replaced a more shoddy version and implemented a more rational and often merciful version of "justice" than it's predecessor:

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Henry Hanna KC, of the High Court of the Irish Free State explained some of the reasons why the Dáil Courts successfully took root as follows:[16]

Apart from the policy of undermining British rule in Ireland, there was a necessity for such throughout the country. Though the superior and County Courts under the British regime were still functioning, the Petty Sessions Courts, which depended on the co-operation of the Royal Irish Constabulary, the magistracy, and the British executive, had collapsed. The Royal Irish Constabulary had been compelled to withdraw from the outlying districts and stations to the larger towns, and had become an armed garrison rather than a civil police force. Many magistrates had resigned their Commissions of the Peace or had been removed from the same. Hence there was real work for these inferior Courts to do. The rival [Dáil] Courts were of a rough-and-ready character, and under much difficulty they decided the disputes of ordinary life more on the lines of common sense and neighbourliness than by strict law.
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  #105  
Old 28.08.2021, 12:58
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

How broad it is I don't know. I've never been asked formally to comment on it, neither as an individual, nor as someone involved within the voluntary sector.



The average office-type expat isn't really going to be very aware of issues in the broader community, as they are cushioned from so much of reality, and rarely dealing with ordinary situations, not to mention often hanging-out with expats.



A normal person doesn't benefit from a relocation package, doesn't get a signing on bonus, doesn't have multiple HR personnel, doesn't have the journey to Switzerland for them and their family members paid for, doesn't get put-up in a fancy apartment for x months when they arrive, doesn't have fancy chai lattes at their fingertips for free, doesn't get their meals often paid for, doesn't go on fancy holidays, doesn't have an expensed phone and laptop, doesn't have a second home, and doesn't live the aflluent life in general.


A normal person is dealing much more with people working in the government, people working in shops, the police, people in their community, the people handling rubbish, debt-collection, and so on.



The racism I see and hear-of in companies is often covert, and the racism I see and hear-of in the community is often overt.


I don't myself see a distinction between expats and locals - I've a similar number of stories from both.


I've been in small shops as racist comments were being made. I've also seen strangers treated differently in those shops, in accordance with the comments.


I arrive very early for conferences, and see the worst of senior people (how they treat others, and what they really think, when no microphone and camera is on them), and have heard racist comments amongst senior people from big companies, if the topic of racism was in the international news and they were either expressing how tedious they found that to be, or were agreeing their default answer for any questions that may arise.


I declined someone's advances towards me a few weekends ago, and was told "go and find yourself a y", with y being a racist comment.


There is someone else who's advances I have declined who makes direct comments about my skin colour each time he sees me, often commenting about it to others he knows in the vicinity, too, whilst I am walking by.


I overheard someone on the street commenting "you don't see y working on the building site", with y being a racist comment.



In volunteering, we had the police trying to enter our premises often to check legal status and see if anyone they're looking for was there, and have an ongoing dispute on our hands to stop these random visits without due cause. When we first managed to halt the random visits, they took to standing outside doing much the same, so people couldn't access much-needed help.


In each request for police help I have been privy to, the question has always been asked (where no conversation had taken place, nor been overheard), what nationality the criminal is. When the person asking for help inevitably says something akin to "I don't know. How could I tell?", they are asked if they skin colour indicated anything.


I recall a police officer having said something akin to"they're still the children of those raised there", when trying to explain the criminal conduct of someone specifically, and the children of non-locals generally.



We've had locals with untypical local names go for job interviews, and the local interviewer didn't use local dialect to speak with the applicant, despite their CV indicating they could, and the applicant responding in dialect and reminding the interviewer they are "from here and speak dialect, too".


I recall someone in a company having said to a colleague of mine they didn't invite someone for an interview, as they couldn't pronounce their name.


We mediate endless conflicts, where someone's country of origin has started to be used as an insult, when it previously wasn't commented upon. Now there's a conflict, they're called a "classic y", with y being a racist comment.


We've had locals with untypical local names go for job interviews, and the local interviewer pursued a line of questioning about "where you're really from", despite the applicant responding in dialect and reminding the interviewer they are "from here".


Headshots, names and nationality being required on a CV, that all interviewers receive, are inevitable sources of discrimination, and it's impossible to quantify how significant the extent of the discrimination pertaining to each, or all of those, is.
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  #106  
Old 28.08.2021, 14:11
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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The numbers are there. Nombre de condamnations pénales en Suisse par nationalité https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/societe...monde/46255492

Surprised to see that my fellow country people that arrive here have a lower conviction rate than the Swiss, Germans, Italians and French. Come on, hand me the country keys, I will take care of it

Beyond that, I can just say that if Afghanistan citizens are risky, well there other immigrants with higher conviction rates. Some of them are always crying about being mistreated and if I write the numbers and country I'll be called a bad racist guy.

PS. parnell. Talk is cheap, surveys are meaningless, actions matter. So, the numbers that count are people leaving the courthouse with a conviction.
That is fantastic data - thankyou! The last time I saw such data from Switzerland - also in English - is here
P.S. I note that the rate of Irish while being lower than the Swiss is far too high and I fully support the deportation of all Irish criminals and exclusion from any welfare services.

In just looking at various wiki articles this morning I see there have been several updates - pertinent to this thread :
Denmark - really great data where the crime rate of children of immigrants is also provided :


Norway :



Regardless of European country - the pattern seems to be the same - these people would be much better served - at much lower cost - by being provided for in neighbouring countries rather than European ones.
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  #107  
Old 28.08.2021, 14:19
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Read the article but it's certainly not accurate in some respects :
But the audacity of the author of that article, to sneak in the IRA -war of independence.. with Talibans, trillion bussiness with poppy seeds..TAPI Pipeline ,Halliburton interests and meddling, lot of other things... ohhh mon dieu

olygirl has her own reasons so I wouldnt dare to explain her how this article is wrong... but I wish we get this Baldwin guy here on the EF and show him some history
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  #108  
Old 28.08.2021, 14:31
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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But the audacity of the author of that article, to sneak in the IRA -war of independence.. with Talibans, trillion bussiness with poppy seeds..TAPI Pipeline ,Halliburton interests and meddling, lot of other things... ohhh mon dieu

olygirl has her own reasons so I wouldnt dare to explain her how this article is wrong... but I wish we get this Baldwin guy here on the EF and show him some history
As far as I'm concerned she can post whatever she likes - and probably I'll read her links because I don't know everything (or even much , truth be told) about Afghans and their homeland. When her posts don't contain personal insults that's a positive and when they contain sense that's even better.
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  #109  
Old 28.08.2021, 14:51
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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That is fantastic data - thankyou! The last time I saw such data from Switzerland - also in English - is here
P.S. I note that the rate of Irish while being lower than the Swiss is far too high and I fully support the deportation of all Irish criminals and exclusion from any welfare services.

In just looking at various wiki articles this morning I see there have been several updates - pertinent to this thread :
Denmark - really great data where the crime rate of children of immigrants is also provided :


Norway :



Regardless of European country - the pattern seems to be the same - these people would be much better served - at much lower cost - by being provided for in neighbouring countries rather than European ones.
The Europeans and the rest of the Western world intervened in what were essentially local matters - when the real focus point should have been Saudi. What is happening now is a less subtle consequence of the days of colonialisation when the servants brought themselves closer to the masters.

Last edited by Never TheLess; 28.08.2021 at 15:09.
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  #110  
Old 28.08.2021, 14:58
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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That is fantastic data - thankyou! The last time I saw such data from Switzerland - also in English - is here
P.S. I note that the rate of Irish while being lower than the Swiss is far too high and I fully support the deportation of all Irish criminals and exclusion from any welfare services.

In just looking at various wiki articles this morning I see there have been several updates - pertinent to this thread :
Denmark - really great data where the crime rate of children of immigrants is also provided :


Norway :



Regardless of European country - the pattern seems to be the same - these people would be much better served - at much lower cost - by being provided for in neighbouring countries rather than European ones.
What these figures miss is the analysis of the type of crime.

If, as a wild example, one type of crime was entering the country illegally then maybe 100% of the refugees would be guilty.
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  #111  
Old 28.08.2021, 15:21
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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The Europeans and the rest of the Western world intervened in what were essentially local matters - when the real focus point should have been Saudi. What is happening now is a less subtle consequence of the days of colonialisation when the servants brought themselves closer to the masters.
When did Switzerland intervene in any war?

Are you advocating for more intervention in Saudi ? Surely it's up to the Islamists to sort out their own religion/state?
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  #112  
Old 28.08.2021, 15:25
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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What these figures miss is the analysis of the type of crime.

If, as a wild example, one type of crime was entering the country illegally then maybe 100% of the refugees would be guilty.
How would their offspring then feature in the Danish example? Please think before you post for once.

In any case thanks to the Finns we have one nice additional dataset which I'm sure you'll agree is rather clear :
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  #113  
Old 28.08.2021, 15:35
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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How would their offspring then feature in the Danish example? Please think before you post for once.

In any case thanks to the Finns we have one nice additional dataset which I'm sure you'll agree is rather clear :
Their offspring would feature if they illegally entered as families.
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  #114  
Old 28.08.2021, 15:41
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Their offspring would feature if they illegally entered as families.
Good then that we have the Finnish data to dismiss such absurdity right?
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  #115  
Old 28.08.2021, 15:57
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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As far as I'm concerned she can post whatever she likes - and probably I'll read her links because I don't know everything (or even much , truth be told) about Afghans and their homeland. When her posts don't contain personal insults that's a positive and when they contain sense that's even better.
I read your links as well and learn from them as well. Your statistics still have not convinced me to throw Afghanis all in the same pot.
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  #116  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:05
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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I read your links as well and learn from them as well. Your statistics still have not convinced me to throw Afghanis all in the same pot.
Thankyou! I don't throw them all into the same pot btw - should a highly qualified liberal minded Afghan brain surgeon with a solid employment contract turn up - bring her/him in!

EDIT:
However as a group their observed attributes are very poorly suited to successful integration and impose an enormous cost on the receiving population - not alone in economic terms but in terms of rape and sexual crime statistics which I think you also care about.

Would you therefore not agree that the barrier to entry to CH or EU should be very high indeed ?

Last edited by parnell; 28.08.2021 at 16:16. Reason: Might be finally making some progress here
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  #117  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:19
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

I think it'd be more honourable to pick a different crime stat, conscious of both the chronic under-reporting of male sexual and violent crimes against women and the systemic problems with male sexual and violent crimes against women not being taken seriously, nor supported even nearly adequately, by the legal system.


It's also pretty uncomfortable to see the will for male posters to come out vocally on the board to debate cold numbers and stat's, reassured the problem is "the other men far away", but do nothing at all when men on this forum type anti-women posts, when men use pejorative terms for women on the forum, when men blame women for the behaviour of men on the forum, and when men seek to silence women for behaviour on the forum they willingly accept from male posters.


What are you doing to help address the vast amount of systemic problems, that render us unable to report male on female sexual and violent crimes, so the figures you delight in debating are more accurate? Do you even care how off these stat's are? Do you care that the danger is all around women, in every country, city and culture, not nearly so convenient as "the men far away"?


Why are you silent when men display anti-women conduct on the forum?
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  #118  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:24
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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I think it'd be more honourable to pick a different crime stat,
Which one did you have in mind??

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conscious of both the chronic under-reporting of male sexual and violent crimes against women and the systemic problems with male sexual and violent crimes against women not being taken seriously, nor supported even nearly adequately, by the legal system.
Can you provide stats to indicate a chronic under-reporting of the stats ? You realise hopefully the tautological problem ?

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It's also pretty uncomfortable to see the will for male posters to come out vocally on the board to debate cold numbers and stat's, reassured the problem is "the other men far away", but do nothing at all when men on this forum type anti-women posts, when men use pejorative terms for women on the forum, when men blame women for the behaviour of men on the forum, and when men seek to silence women for behaviour on the forum they willingly accept from male posters.

What are you doing to help address the vast amount of systemic problems, that render us unable to report male on female sexual and violent crimes, so the figures you delight in debating are more accurate? Do you even care how off these stat's are? Do you care that the danger is all around women, in every country, city and culture, not nearly so convenient as "the men far away"?


Why are you silent when men display anti-women conduct on the forum?
Feel free to start a different thread on it - I'll be happy to add my 2 cents.
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Old 28.08.2021, 16:24
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Thankyou! I don't throw them all into the same pot btw - should a highly qualified liberal minded Afghan brain surgeon with a solid employment contract turn up - bring her/him in!

EDIT:
However as a group their observed attributes are very poorly suited to successful integration and impose an enormous cost on the receiving population - not alone in economic terms but in terms of rape and sexual crime statistics which I think you also care about.

Would you therefore not agree that the barrier to entry to CH or EU should be very high indeed ?
High is subjective. I believe intensive and thorough introductory courses that include German and cultural awareness and behavioral expectancies, schooling, job opportunities and a supportive diaspora are key in optimizing integration into any country.

Parnell, I truly wish you'd meet some of these Afghan refugees here. I think you'll find that some of your biases may melt away.
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  #120  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:28
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Good then that we have the Finnish data to dismiss such absurdity right?
In Finland, they count offences, not criminals so one multiple offender can really distort their numbers.
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