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  #121  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:32
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Which one did you have in mind??

Can you provide stats to indicate a chronic under-reporting of the stats ? You realise hopefully the tautological problem ?

Feel free to start a different thread on it - I'll be happy to add my 2 cents.

Could you respond to my post please, without using the word stat's? You haven't responded to anything I asked.


You also seem disconnected from the stark reality of this topic for us women (horrifying to see the coldness in the posts above), so it'd help if you'd stop discussing us as mere stat's, consider the gaps in what you're posting, consider the gaps in your understanding as a man, and consider your own conduct towards us on this very forum.



Again, why are you silent when there is anti-women conduct on the forum? Why aren't you taking the men to task right under your nose here, with the same will you pursue "those far away"?
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  #122  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:32
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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High is subjective. I believe intensive and thorough introductory courses that include German and cultural awareness and behavioral expectancies, schooling, job opportunities and a supportive diaspora are key in optimizing integration into any country.
That is not merit based - resources are finite - they should therefore be spent where they are most likely to lead to positive outcomes. Afghans stand a much better chance of integrating in Pakistan or Tajikstan as LiB mentioned - and at far lower cost to all parties - than they do here. Do you accept that ?

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Parnell, I truly wish you'd meet some of these Afghan refugees here. I think you'll find that some of your biases may melt away.
I've met a few - not here - but in Germany - no worse or better than any other crowd of tightly knit folks who are super tough from my personal interaction.
That's already part of the problem - we are soft - they are tough and are only too happy to game the system (lie , cheat , falsify).

BTW you might be right - I might be biased - but I rely on data outside my personal experience to guide my thinking - and do wish you would not curse me as racist for doing so.
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  #123  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:35
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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BTW you might be right - I might be biased - but I rely on data outside my personal experience to guide my thinking - and do wish you would not curse me as racist for doing so.

How many hours of voluntary work do you participate in weekly, supporting communities with high numbers of asylum seekers and refugees, in order to know some of their stories and experiences?
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  #124  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:36
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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In Finland, they count offences, not criminals so one multiple offender can really distort their numbers.
Can you provide evidence for that ? I think you are confusing Finland for Sweden.
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  #125  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:37
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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It's also pretty uncomfortable to see the will for male posters to come out vocally on the board to debate cold numbers and stat's, reassured the problem is "the other men far away", but do nothing at all when men on this forum type anti-women posts, when men use pejorative terms for women on the forum, when men blame women for the behaviour of men on the forum, and when men seek to silence women for behaviour on the forum they willingly accept from male posters.
You are comparing crime statistics with bitching between anonymous users on an internet forum. If such a user goes too far, you can ignore them or report them and you will never see them again, contrary to real-world crime.
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  #126  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:37
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Could you respond to my post please, without using the word stat's? You haven't responded to anything I asked.
I did - you didn't like my response - please stop trolling me since that is against the board rules.
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  #127  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:41
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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You are comparing crime statistics with bitching between anonymous users on an internet forum. If such a user goes too far, you can ignore them or report them and you will never see them again, contrary to real-world crime.

Not at all, since the anti-women posts aren't part of a back-and-forth between a female poster and male. The anti-women posts are launched at us randomly, and no other male poster does anything - there's silence. I happen to speak-out against such posts when I spot them, but there's then an inevitable pile-on from male posters to silence me (never to deal with the men and the men's anti-women conduct).



Anti-women conduct, of the type this thread is now about, is right here on our doorstep. It is not "those men over there far away".



Why are you silent?
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  #128  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:50
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Not at all, since the anti-women posts aren't part of a back-and-forth between a female poster and male. The anti-women posts are launched at us randomly, and no other male poster does anything - there's silence. I happen to speak-out against such posts when I spot them, but there's then an inevitable pile-on from male posters to silence me (never to deal with the men and the men's anti-women conduct).



Anti-women conduct, of the type this thread is now about, is right here on our doorstep. It is not "those men over there far away".



Why are you silent?
Instead of accusing random male posters, why not post a list of these anti-women posters to make it a bit more concrete so that we all know who you are talking about?
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  #129  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:51
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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How many hours of voluntary work do you participate in weekly, supporting communities with high numbers of asylum seekers and refugees, in order to know some of their stories and experiences?
Actually I would be interested in volunteering to help refugees in my local area. I started Googling for schemes around the Zurich area but would be interested to hear from any on this forum that already help out. Even if it is practical stuff like helping someone fill out a form, or other day to day activities where knowledge of how things work in Switzerland can be a help.
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  #130  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:55
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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BTW you might be right - I might be biased - but I rely on data outside my personal experience to guide my thinking - and do wish you would not curse me as racist for doing so.

Parnell, being biased and consistently finding statistics to underscore beliefs that Afghanis will only bring in drugs, crime and rape and therefore should not be granted refugee status in Switzerland is....
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  #131  
Old 28.08.2021, 16:59
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Not at all, since the anti-women posts aren't part of a back-and-forth between a female poster and male. The anti-women posts are launched at us randomly, and no other male poster does anything - there's silence. I happen to speak-out against such posts when I spot them, but there's then an inevitable pile-on from male posters to silence me (never to deal with the men and the men's anti-women conduct).



Anti-women conduct, of the type this thread is now about, is right here on our doorstep. It is not "those men over there far away".



Why are you silent?
Cliini Muus, you definitely have an axe to grind and some of your observations are indeed spot on. However, this is not the thread to air your grievances. Instead, flag the post in question and report the poster or you can also confront the poster on the thread.

Last edited by olygirl; 28.08.2021 at 17:42.
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  #132  
Old 28.08.2021, 17:00
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Parnell, being biased and consistently finding statistics to underscore beliefs that Afghanis will only bring in drugs, crime and rape and therefore should not be granted refugee status in Switzerland is....
I contend that I'm not biased - but I'm open to the possibility - are you ??

Finding statistics to form one view or another is simply determination to find the truth other than your anecdotal "I know an Afghan lad" effort. It also is far better in terms of understanding group dynamics.

I note that you are unable to answer my question on whether or not you accept "Afghans stand a much better chance of integrating in Pakistan or Tajikstan as LiB mentioned - and at far lower cost to all parties - than they do here." - Why is that since I have shown you sufficient respect to answer your questions and have refrained from personally insulting you.
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  #133  
Old 28.08.2021, 17:01
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Instead of accusing random male posters, why not post a list of these anti-women posters to make it a bit more concrete so that we all know who you are talking about?

The choice to be silent is as complicit as the act itself. No male poster gets to absolve himself, by remaining silent, when he could speak out.



A woman was referred to as a sl*t on the board. It was me alone who objected to the pejorative team visibly. I was then attacked for speaking out.


2 examples from a thread from recent days:


Anti-women post example 1:
https://www.englishforum.ch/3341950-post38.html
My response to that post having been posted (NB not a random post by me, but a response to an existing post on the same thread):
https://www.englishforum.ch/3342029-post49.html
The silencing:
https://www.englishforum.ch/3342034-post51.html


Anti-women post example 2:
https://www.englishforum.ch/3342144-post65.html
My response to that post having been posted (NB not a random post by me, but a response to an existing post on the same thread):
https://www.englishforum.ch/3342423-post76.html
The silencing:
https://www.englishforum.ch/3342445-post79.html


Rinse and repeat.
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  #134  
Old 28.08.2021, 17:36
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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I contend that I'm not biased - but I'm open to the possibility - are you ??

Finding statistics to form one view or another is simply determination to find the truth other than your anecdotal "I know an Afghan lad" effort. It also is far better in terms of understanding group dynamics.

I note that you are unable to answer my question on whether or not you accept "Afghans stand a much better chance of integrating in Pakistan or Tajikstan as LiB mentioned - and at far lower cost to all parties - than they do here." - Why is that since I have shown you sufficient respect to answer your questions and have refrained from personally insulting you.
Pakistan has been allowing Afghans into their country for centuries. Iran has over 3.5 million Afghan refugees already. Due to culture and language, it makes sense that Afghans find refuge in neighboring countries but this is a crisis and humanitarian efforts are needed to deal with the latest flight of refugees.

Here's an excellent article from the BBC that details the current status of sheltering Afghan refugees throughout the world. Europe is not planning on permitting large groups of refugees at the present time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58283177

Briefly:

What are countries doing to help?

While some countries have offered Afghans safe haven, others have indicated they will not be giving sanctuary to those fleeing.

Iran

Iran has set up emergency tents for refugees in three of its provinces which border Afghanistan. But senior officials from the Iranian interior ministry have said that any Afghans who crossed into Iran would "once conditions improve, be repatriated". Iran already hosts nearly 3.5 million Afghans, according to the UN.

Pakistan

Prime Minister Imran Khan said in June that his country would seal its border with Afghanistan if the Taliban took control. However, reports say several thousand Afghans have crossed into Pakistan and that at least one border crossing is open. The Taliban are said to be restricting access to traders and those with valid travel documents.

Tajikistan

Exact numbers are unclear but reports suggest at least several hundred Afghans, including soldiers from the Afghan National Army, crossed into Tajikistan as the Taliban advanced on Kabul. In July, Tajikistan said it was preparing to take in up to 100,000 refugees from Afghanistan.

Uzbekistan

About 1,500 Afghans are said to have crossed the Afghanistan-Uzbekistan border and set up camp. Reports suggest the Taliban are only allowing people with valid visas to use official border crossings.

UK

The UK has announced plans to accept 20,000 Afghan refugees over the long term. The British government's Afghan Citizens' Resettlement Scheme will aim to allow 5,000 Afghans to settle in the UK in the first year and will focus on women and children as well as religious and other minorities in greatest danger from the Taliban.

US

President Joe Biden has authorised $500m (£367m) for "unexpected urgent refugee and migration needs of refugees, victims of conflict, and other persons at risk as a result of the situation in Afghanistan, including applicants for special immigrant visas". The US has not announced an exact number of refugees it will allow in.

Canada

Canada has said that it will resettle 20,000 Afghans, focusing on those in danger from the Taliban, including government workers and women leaders.

Australia

Australia says it will offer 3,000 places in its humanitarian visa programme to Afghans fleeing their country. But the places will come from the existing programme of available humanitarian visas, and there will be no increase in overall numbers.

European Union

Officials in several European Union countries say they are keen to avoid a repeat of the 2015 migrant crisis, when there was a populist backlash to large numbers of refugees being allowed to enter EU territory.

Germany

Germany has indicated that it will accept some Afghans, but has not specified numbers. Chancellor Angela Merkel, who faced sharp criticism for her open-door policy towards migrants in 2015, has said that her government was focused on making sure that refugees "have a secure stay in countries neighbouring Afghanistan".

France

President Emmanuel Macron has said that Europe must "protect itself from significant waves of illegal migrants" from Afghanistan. He said France would "protect those who are in the most danger", but added: "Europe cannot take on the consequences from the current situation alone."

Austria

Austria has ruled out taking any Afghan refugees. The country's interior minister has argued in favour of continuing to deport failed Afghan asylum-seekers and has lobbied for the establishment of "deportation centres" in countries neighbouring Afghanistan, where direct deportation to Afghanistan is not possible.

Switzerland

Switzerland has said it will not accept large groups of refugees arriving directly from Afghanistan.

Turkey

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said his government will work to help stabilise Afghanistan but he has urged European countries to take responsibility for any new migrant crisis, saying Turkey would not be "Europe's migrant storage unit". Turkey has stepped up construction of a border wall with Iran to keep migrants out.

North Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo

North Macedonia and Albania have said that they will temporarily host 450 and 300 refugees respectively at the request of the US. The refugees are expected to stay until documentation for US immigration visas can be arranged. Kosovo is also planning to provide temporary shelter for refugees heading to the US but has not specified numbers.

Uganda

Uganda has agreed to take in 2,000 Afghan refugees. The East African nation has the largest number of refugees in any country in Africa - and the third largest in the world.

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  #135  
Old 28.08.2021, 17:40
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

Cliini Muus

Please start a new thread since it's a different topic. I'd like to reply to your post somewhere else but not on this thread here otherwise we'll derail it completely.
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  #136  
Old 28.08.2021, 17:43
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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The choice to be silent is as complicit as the act itself. No male poster gets to absolve himself, by remaining silent, when he could speak out.

A woman was referred to as a sl*t on the board. It was me alone who objected to the pejorative team visibly. I was then attacked for speaking out.

2 examples from a thread from recent days:

Anti-women post example 1:
https://www.englishforum.ch/3341950-post38.html
My response to that post having been posted (NB not a random post by me, but a response to an existing post on the same thread):
https://www.englishforum.ch/3342029-post49.html
The silencing:
https://www.englishforum.ch/3342034-post51.html

Anti-women post example 2:
https://www.englishforum.ch/3342144-post65.html
My response to that post having been posted (NB not a random post by me, but a response to an existing post on the same thread):
https://www.englishforum.ch/3342423-post76.html
The silencing:
https://www.englishforum.ch/3342445-post79.html

Rinse and repeat.
Sounds like Tom1234 is the main culprit.
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  #137  
Old 28.08.2021, 17:46
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Sounds like Tom1234 is the main culprit.
Yeah, but he didn't silence her. She still won't STFU.

Also, it appears that the "silencing" posts were thanked by several women.
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Old 28.08.2021, 17:47
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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What these figures miss is the analysis of the type of crime.

If, as a wild example, one type of crime was entering the country illegally then maybe 100% of the refugees would be guilty.
I agree. Any crime statistics which lump pickpocketing and drug possession in with rape and murder are meant to incite an emotional response and should not be used to inform public policy.

Another problem is the issue of age and gender. Crimes tend to be disproportionately committed by relatively young males. Since new immigrant populations tend to skew younger and more male (at least in the initial wave) than the 'native' population of people who have been there for a while, an apparent increase in your total crime statistic could easily appear. But if you compare 20-30 year old male migrants with 20-30 year old 'natives', the difference may vanish or even reverse direction. Lacking the dataset here, I can't come to any firm conclusions of the type on which to base policy, but nor should anyone else.

Numerical facts are important and enormously powerful, but to get to the truth often requires digging through the data as objectively as possible for a human to do.
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  #139  
Old 28.08.2021, 17:50
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Another problem is the issue of age and gender. Crimes tend to be disproportionately committed by relatively young males. Since new immigrant populations tend to skew younger and more male (at least in the initial wave) than the 'native' population of people who have been there for a while, an apparent increase in your total crime statistic could easily appear. But if you compare 20-30 year old male migrants with 20-30 year old 'natives', the difference may vanish or even reverse direction. Lacking the dataset here, I can't come to any firm conclusions of the type on which to base policy, but nor should anyone else.
Perhaps importing large numbers of young males isn't a good idea then...
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  #140  
Old 28.08.2021, 18:30
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Re: Afghan Refugees in Switzerland

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Pakistan has been allowing Afghans into their country for centuries.
Just a heads up on a technicality...

Pakistan didn't exist until the partition of India in 1947. The word 'Pakistan' didn't exist before 1933 when it was dreamed up by a Cambridge University student, Choudhary Rahmat Ali, as an acronym of Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir, Indus-Sind and Baluchistan
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