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  #21  
Old 10.05.2021, 12:42
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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One of the big arguments for Scotland remaining in the UK was that if Scotland became in independent country, it would not be in the EU any more.

Also, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc all have the same monarchy as the UK/England so that is a non-issue.

Scottish NHS is separate from England/Wales NHS, again, non-issue.

Borders and fishing have changed since the last referendum, so that is a BIG issue that requires a re-vote.

Energy, lots of wind and oil and gas in Scotland. They’ll be fine.

Money and military I’ll give you.
They do a lot more trade with England that with the EU. Hence joining the EU, accepting all their conditions, etc. is a loss of soverignty for a loss of trade. And the installation of a hard border That's why Brexit is seen as making independence tougher, by some at least.
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  #22  
Old 10.05.2021, 13:36
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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Money and military I’ll give you.
I always thought the top regiments were predominantly Scottish .
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  #23  
Old 10.05.2021, 13:53
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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I always thought the top regiments were predominantly Scottish .
There's that fundamental misunderstanding again; no, they're not Scottish, they're not English, they're all British.

Yes, there are some historic regiments, mostly now combined into the Scots Guards, with roots that predate the Act of Union, but they do not in any way belong to Scotland. Even they had become part of the English Army some years before the UK, and with it the British Army, came into being.
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  #24  
Old 10.05.2021, 14:05
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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There's that fundamental misunderstanding again; no, they're not Scottish, they're not English, they're all British.

Yes, there are some historic regiments, mostly now combined into the Scots Guards, with roots that predate the Act of Union, but they do not in any way belong to Scotland. Even they had become part of the English Army some years before the UK, and with it the British Army, came into being.
That's basically what I meant, only I took the shorthand way of saying it.

If independence were to happen, I suppose the military would be spilt in a similar way to the national debt and other high-level and commonly held assets and liabilities. So Scotland would get some military capability, and this would probably be in the form of those regiments most associated with and connected to Scotland.
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Old 10.05.2021, 14:07
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Scottish person here. I've always been pro union but I have been going more toward to independence side since the EU referendum. We were always told to remain in the EU we have to vote 'No' in the independence referendum, only for England to pull us out the EU in the EU referendum. Not ideal.

Saying that I don't think another independence referendum is a good idea but for as long as the SNP continue to be elected on a mandate of an independent Scotland then the question will continue to crop up. The fact that there is no real alternative to voting for the SNP in Scotland I can see it being an issue for a long time to come.
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  #26  
Old 10.05.2021, 20:20
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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Scottish person here. I've always been pro union but I have been going more toward to independence side since the EU referendum. We were always told to remain in the EU we have to vote 'No' in the independence referendum, only for England to pull us out the EU in the EU referendum. Not ideal.

Saying that I don't think another independence referendum is a good idea but for as long as the SNP continue to be elected on a mandate of an independent Scotland then the question will continue to crop up. The fact that there is no real alternative to voting for the SNP in Scotland I can see it being an issue for a long time to come.
I feel more or less the same, I was a No voter in 2014 with family both sides of the border I didn't want division. I believe now a referendum is inevitable and I would vote yes in it if ever given a choice. A compromise could and should have been found after the 2016 referendum, instead no engagement whatsoever with Scotland or indeed any other UK nation and the hardest of brexits, it's no wonder the independence debate will never be settled when UK government keeps following policies which antagonise Scotland. I also hate how strong the SNP are in Scotland given their government track record is mixed at best, but I'd choose that any day over toxic Boris and his band of cronies.
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  #27  
Old 10.05.2021, 23:39
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

A question from a non-British person: why is SNP so strong in Scotland? Are there no Scottish nationalists who happen to have conservative, economic liberal or similar views? Or is it the case that there was not enough space on the political scene of Scotland, and all politicians who are in favor of Scottish independence must choose to work with a social democratic party?

I'm aware of the another initiative launched by Alex Salmond, but his party seems to be more a vendetta and a conflict inside the SNP.
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  #28  
Old 11.05.2021, 01:26
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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A question from a non-British person: why is SNP so strong in Scotland? Are there no Scottish nationalists who happen to have conservative, economic liberal or similar views? Or is it the case that there was not enough space on the political scene of Scotland, and all politicians who are in favor of Scottish independence must choose to work with a social democratic party?

I'm aware of the another initiative launched by Alex Salmond, but his party seems to be more a vendetta and a conflict inside the SNP.
The nationalists are great at keeping party discipline. Although yes, there's a range of economic views they follow the party whip so well the division doesn't come out much in public.
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  #29  
Old 11.05.2021, 08:11
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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A question from a non-British person: why is SNP so strong in Scotland? Are there no Scottish nationalists who happen to have conservative, economic liberal or similar views? Or is it the case that there was not enough space on the political scene of Scotland, and all politicians who are in favor of Scottish independence must choose to work with a social democratic party?

I'm aware of the another initiative launched by Alex Salmond, but his party seems to be more a vendetta and a conflict inside the SNP.
It's an interesting phenomenon actually.

You can see the same in Catalonia, in the Basque Country, in Corsica, even in Kosovo. Pro independence parties seem to be entirely or predominantly left wing whereas conservative parties are for staying inside the respective unions.

Maybe the explanation is that the word nationalist is being used in a different way, as in "let's just separate off as it would make it easier for us to get a majority and do our own thing".

Remember how when the Lega Nord discovered their message resonated across all of Italy, they quietly dropped the Nord bit from their name and became the Lega. Why settle for regional independence when you can have the whole country?

Maybe one day Nicola Sturgeon will be so popular across all of Britain that she will change her party name from SNP to BNP
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  #30  
Old 11.05.2021, 08:28
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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Maybe one day Nicola Sturgeon will be so popular across all of Britain that she will change her party name from SNP to BNP
Doubtful - most English people hate her with a passion.

We also have a BNP already - they're facist white supremacists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party
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  #31  
Old 11.05.2021, 08:31
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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Doubtful - most English people hate her with a passion.

We also have a BNP already - they're facist white supremacists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party
woooosh
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  #32  
Old 11.05.2021, 08:48
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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It's an interesting phenomenon actually.

You can see the same in Catalonia, in the Basque Country, in Corsica, even in Kosovo. Pro independence parties seem to be entirely or predominantly left wing whereas conservative parties are for staying inside the respective unions.

Maybe the explanation is that the word nationalist is being used in a different way, as in "let's just separate off as it would make it easier for us to get a majority and do our own thing".

Remember how when the Lega Nord discovered their message resonated across all of Italy, they quietly dropped the Nord bit from their name and became the Lega. Why settle for regional independence when you can have the whole country?

Maybe one day Nicola Sturgeon will be so popular across all of Britain that she will change her party name from SNP to BNP
It would be quite apt there is a decent sized hard-core of blood and soil Scottish Nats within the SNP, whereas a bigger proportion just get away with the not quite as vile (but almost) anti-English xenophobia of the type peddled by Mrs. Sturgeon.
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  #33  
Old 11.05.2021, 08:51
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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That's basically what I meant, only I took the shorthand way of saying it.

If independence were to happen, I suppose the military would be spilt in a similar way to the national debt and other high-level and commonly held assets and liabilities. So Scotland would get some military capability, and this would probably be in the form of those regiments most associated with and connected to Scotland.
Surely the soldiers in those regiments are British before they are Scottish? Why would anyone who believes in an independent Scotland join the British Army?
In the case of independance I believe that Scotland would need to build it´s own army from scratch.
Does the SNP have anything to say about this?
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Old 11.05.2021, 09:04
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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I don't see how they can ask people to vote again when all of the unanswered questions from last time are still outstanding..

Oil, currency, military, monarchy, borders, fishing, healthcare, energy .. Huge list..

It should be a clear vote..
If you vote to leave, this will happen..
Not - if you vote for independence then we have no idea when or how any of this stuff will work out.

Sure, the bit of braveheart in us would love it.. but how will it work?
This 99%, excellent post apart from the Braveheart bit.

Last edited by MidfieldGeneral; 11.05.2021 at 09:18.
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  #35  
Old 11.05.2021, 09:23
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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This 99%, excellent post apart from the Braveheart bit.
Not even a hair?
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  #36  
Old 11.05.2021, 10:31
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

I'd say let Sturgeon have her vote - she'll lose it anyway but perhaps that will shut her up!!

I'd prefer the status quo but I've always said that if the Scottish people really want independence, then let them have it! Will save England a lot of money!

Assuming an independent Scotland does not join the EU, and it's unlikely since Spain will likely object, then there's no reason not to have a Common Travel Area as exists (existed!!!) with the republic of Ireland.
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Old 11.05.2021, 10:37
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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I'd say let Sturgeon have her vote - she'll lose it anyway but perhaps that will shut her up!!
The last referendum did not shut her up, it is unlikely that a new one would either.

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Assuming an independent Scotland does not join the EU, and it's unlikely since Spain will likely object,
Interesting point. Have any Spanish politicians publicly indicated this?
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Old 11.05.2021, 11:35
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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The last referendum did not shut her up, it is unlikely that a new one would either.

I agree - she's like a petulant child who'll keep asking the same question until she gets the answer she wants.
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Old 11.05.2021, 13:45
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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Assuming an independent Scotland does not join the EU, and it's unlikely since Spain will likely object, then there's no reason not to have a Common Travel Area as exists (existed!!!) with the republic of Ireland.
Still exists AFAIK.

Even if an independent Scotland joined the EU, it could still remain in the CTA much like Ireland.
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Old 11.05.2021, 13:47
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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I agree - she's like a petulant child who'll keep asking the same question until she gets the answer she wants.
Which is why she would feel so at home in the EU.
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