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Old 09.05.2021, 08:12
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SNP, Scotland, Independence

With the news overnight that the SNP has again won the latest election, and Nicola Sturgeon announcing (again) that she intends to hold an independence referendum (again)....can someone please explain to me, in simple terms, WHY the Scots want to be independent AND why England doesn't just let them go and do their own thing?

I'm not judging either way, I just don't have enough information to understand the matter, and whilst I've heard some extremely emotional views from acquaintances on both sides, I've still heard/read anything that to date seems to make real sense to me....

I've also heard that independence would mean a hard border would be essential, but I also don't understand why - Geneva and France seem to have quite a tidy arrangement with splitting taxes whilst allowing cross border working?

Last edited by smileygreebins; 09.05.2021 at 08:26.
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Old 09.05.2021, 08:39
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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I've also heard that independence would mean a hard border would be essential, but I also don't understand why - Geneva and France seem to have quite a tidy arrangement with splitting taxes whilst allowing cross border working?
Despite both being in Schengen, the border between Switzerland and France is a 'hard border'. Goods certainly do not move freely as Switzerland is not in the EU single market. Movement of people can, and has been, restricted at times. Border patrols are quite common. People are subject to being questioned and searched.

But should Scotland leave the UK their border with England could be managed in a similar way.
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Old 09.05.2021, 09:11
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

I think we are going to see an interesting reversal of arguments .

Virtually all pro Brexit arguments also have their pro independence equivalent . Unaccountable burocrats in Brussels / Westminster . They are stealing our fish . Long queues of lorries in Dover / Berwick . Hard border won’t work . Essential supplies of toilet paper . Project fear .

So it will be interesting to watch politicians on both sides of the debate eat their words and say the opposite of what they said previously .
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Old 09.05.2021, 09:33
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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I've also heard that independence would mean a hard border would be essential, but I also don't understand why - Geneva and France seem to have quite a tidy arrangement with splitting taxes whilst allowing cross border working?

Hard borders are an indirect requirement of trade agreements. WTO rules don't actually say so, but it's the only practical way of meeting their requirements. The borders between Switzerland and the EU are hard borders when it comes to trade - Switzerland is not part of the customs union, but it does have some access to the single market, so checks etc do happen.



As for why, like the BREXITEERS, the Remainers, the Irish etc... they all believe it's best for their country. Whether it is or not you won't know until you try and even then you probably won't know for maybe 50 years!
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Old 09.05.2021, 17:16
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

To add to the OP, can someone explain how the whole thing would work? From what I read online, BoJo has to give the okay for a referendum and he's said he won't do that. If continues to say no then I guess any referendum is non-binding? Kinda like Brexit was non-binding?
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Old 09.05.2021, 17:28
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

I don't see how they can ask people to vote again when all of the unanswered questions from last time are still outstanding..

Oil, currency, military, monarchy, borders, fishing, healthcare, energy .. Huge list..

It should be a clear vote..
If you vote to leave, this will happen..
Not - if you vote for independence then we have no idea when or how any of this stuff will work out.

Sure, the bit of braveheart in us would love it.. but how will it work?
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Old 09.05.2021, 17:34
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

I don't care if Scotland becomes independent or not, but I can't stand Nicola Sturgeon.
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Old 09.05.2021, 17:39
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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I don't care if Scotland becomes independent or not, but I can't stand Nicola Sturgeon.
Agreed. On balance I'd give her a second referendum but bring in a new constitutional law forbidding repeatedly asking the same question so the 2nd time will be the Last.

I accept Brexit has changed the game - although depending on your perspective it's made the cost of independence much higher.

Also - what about NI? The unionist community there are almost all of a Scottish origin. I hope the SNP don't leave us to sort out that Scottish sourced disaster zone.
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Old 09.05.2021, 17:46
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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I think we are going to see an interesting reversal of arguments .

Virtually all pro Brexit arguments also have their pro independence equivalent . Unaccountable burocrats in Brussels / Westminster . They are stealing our fish . Long queues of lorries in Dover / Berwick . Hard border won’t work . Essential supplies of toilet paper . Project fear .

So it will be interesting to watch politicians on both sides of the debate eat their words and say the opposite of what they said previously .
Yes and No. The SNP have been clear that independence means rejoining the EU (although they don't even nearly meet the requirements).

So if you had a problem with the EU in 2016 there's a coherent way to be a unionist this time. Leave UK and stay out of Europe is not an option.

That said, I think if the SNP got independence they'd seriously consider not rejoining the EU. It makes zero sense - a loss of sovereignty AND a loss economically and they've been very vague about timings.

They don't give a stuff about the EU. That's a means to an end for them and end is independence.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 09.05.2021 at 17:58.
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Old 09.05.2021, 18:53
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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can someone please explain to me, in simple terms, WHY the Scots want to be independent AND why England doesn't just let them go and do their own thing?
It's mainly just a long term resentment at being 'controlled' by a remote government. Scotland has historically retained a lot of it's legal process and rights, but in most day-to-day national decision-making the Scots assembly is very much subordinate to the Westminster government. They (the SNP and their followers) don't like it, and want more control over their own fiscal and social policy, amongst other things.

The fact that Scotland was unable to properly function as a nation without the Act of Union that took the Scots king and made him king of England as well, and the benefits it brought to Scotland, are largely ignored, and the fact that separation now would bring many economic problems is denied; whether Scotland could function independently is doubtful, although subject to debate, but there are many areas that the SNP just refuse to address, as pointed out by another poster.

You're very wrong, however, to suggest that it's England that won't let it happen. The United Kingdom has been a single entity in most respects for 400+ years - England doesn't really exist as a nation in its own right, so it's the whole UK, including most Scots residents, who don't want the separation to happen, not England in particular.
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Old 09.05.2021, 19:52
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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They don't give a stuff about the EU. That's a means to an end for them and end is independence.
You mean the SNP or the man in the street ?

I think the SNP does very much like the EU.
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Old 09.05.2021, 21:37
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

The SNP will no doubt have to wait until the pandemic is over with Scotland back on the road to economic
recovery, along with the rest of the UK before chancing her arm with Indyref2 again.
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Old 09.05.2021, 21:54
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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To add to the OP, can someone explain how the whole thing would work? From what I read online, BoJo has to give the okay for a referendum and he's said he won't do that. If continues to say no then I guess any referendum is non-binding? Kinda like Brexit was non-binding?
Well what do you think they will do, send the army into Scotland....
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Old 09.05.2021, 22:43
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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Well what do you think they will do, send the army into Scotland....
Ah ... opening of the second front - north - as south to France is in it's full swing - nuclear subs to block fishing docks - they couldn't go to Scotland anyway... could they?
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Old 10.05.2021, 08:58
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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...very much subordinate to the Westminster government. They (the SNP and their followers) don't like it, and want more control over their own fiscal and social policy, amongst other things..
So I've been told repeatedly that Scotland is paid significant subsidies from the UK coffers (more so than Wales), and receives additional monies that are pro-rata linked to any spend within London...IF this is correct, do you happen to know what additional fiscal advantages the SNP believe they can secure by being independent?
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Old 10.05.2021, 09:23
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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So I've been told repeatedly that Scotland is paid significant subsidies from the UK coffers (more so than Wales), and receives additional monies that are pro-rata linked to any spend within London...IF this is correct, do you happen to know what additional fiscal advantages the SNP believe they can secure by being independent?
There is very little in the way of an economic argument for an independent Scotland the way the economy there currently operates. That isn't to say this could change, but the SNP has never given any practicable solutions or policies to what they'd do to solve this issue.

Ultimately though, the economic argument doesn't really matter as it obviously isn't having the cut through it probably should have with the voters. This debate seems to be very much driven by emotions at present!
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Old 10.05.2021, 09:29
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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So I've been told repeatedly that Scotland is paid significant subsidies from the UK coffers (more so than Wales), and receives additional monies that are pro-rata linked to any spend within London...IF this is correct, do you happen to know what additional fiscal advantages the SNP believe they can secure by being independent?

lots of things they could tax, theoretically.

I guess they also anticipate they could get EU funding.

And to some extent this thinking is not entirely wrong. Small countries are often more agile. In a large country a policy that is good for group or region A may be counterproductive for group or region B.

This is also the thinking behind devolution.

There may be a huge gap in perspective and interests between say Glasgow and a remote island. But that gap is still smaller than the gap between the same island and London.
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Old 10.05.2021, 11:45
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Does the SNP want Scotland to join the Euro (currency)? If so, have they set the exchange rate? Surely this is essential information for voters.
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Old 10.05.2021, 11:52
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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I don't see how they can ask people to vote again when all of the unanswered questions from last time are still outstanding..

Oil, currency, military, monarchy, borders, fishing, healthcare, energy .. Huge list..

It should be a clear vote..
If you vote to leave, this will happen..
Not - if you vote for independence then we have no idea when or how any of this stuff will work out.

Sure, the bit of braveheart in us would love it.. but how will it work?
One of the big arguments for Scotland remaining in the UK was that if Scotland became in independent country, it would not be in the EU any more.

Also, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc all have the same monarchy as the UK/England so that is a non-issue.

Scottish NHS is separate from England/Wales NHS, again, non-issue.

Borders and fishing have changed since the last referendum, so that is a BIG issue that requires a re-vote.

Energy, lots of wind and oil and gas in Scotland. They’ll be fine.

Money and military I’ll give you.
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Old 10.05.2021, 12:35
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Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

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Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc all have the same monarchy as the UK/England so that is a non-issue.
They share the Monarch, but none of them do they share the Monarchy, i.e. she has completely different roles in those countries (and between them) from within the UK.

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Scottish NHS is separate from England/Wales NHS, again, non-issue.
Well, except for the funding...


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Energy, lots of wind and oil and gas in Scotland. They’ll be fine.
Most of it is outside territorial waters, and they don't own the production platforms and processing, even if it's based there. So as pointed out at the previous referendum, they are not self-sufficient in energy. Wind stuff is still a very small proportion of total production, and again, ownership of other power-producing processes like nuclear stations does not lie with them.

Last edited by Guest; 11.05.2021 at 16:42. Reason: Fixing quote
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