Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09.05.2021, 08:12
smileygreebins's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Schwyz
Posts: 558
Groaned at 30 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,100 Times in 331 Posts
smileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond repute
SNP, Scotland, Independence

With the news overnight that the SNP has again won the latest election, and Nicola Sturgeon announcing (again) that she intends to hold an independence referendum (again)....can someone please explain to me, in simple terms, WHY the Scots want to be independent AND why England doesn't just let them go and do their own thing?

I'm not judging either way, I just don't have enough information to understand the matter, and whilst I've heard some extremely emotional views from acquaintances on both sides, I've still heard/read anything that to date seems to make real sense to me....

I've also heard that independence would mean a hard border would be essential, but I also don't understand why - Geneva and France seem to have quite a tidy arrangement with splitting taxes whilst allowing cross border working?

Last edited by smileygreebins; 09.05.2021 at 08:26.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank smileygreebins for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 09.05.2021, 08:39
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 4,911
Groaned at 248 Times in 182 Posts
Thanked 6,689 Times in 3,146 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post

I've also heard that independence would mean a hard border would be essential, but I also don't understand why - Geneva and France seem to have quite a tidy arrangement with splitting taxes whilst allowing cross border working?
Despite both being in Schengen, the border between Switzerland and France is a 'hard border'. Goods certainly do not move freely as Switzerland is not in the EU single market. Movement of people can, and has been, restricted at times. Border patrols are quite common. People are subject to being questioned and searched.

But should Scotland leave the UK their border with England could be managed in a similar way.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank bowlie for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 09.05.2021, 09:11
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,714
Groaned at 294 Times in 239 Posts
Thanked 24,962 Times in 10,544 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

I think we are going to see an interesting reversal of arguments .

Virtually all pro Brexit arguments also have their pro independence equivalent . Unaccountable burocrats in Brussels / Westminster . They are stealing our fish . Long queues of lorries in Dover / Berwick . Hard border won’t work . Essential supplies of toilet paper . Project fear .

So it will be interesting to watch politicians on both sides of the debate eat their words and say the opposite of what they said previously .
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 09.05.2021, 09:33
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,508
Groaned at 217 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 7,421 Times in 3,283 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post
I've also heard that independence would mean a hard border would be essential, but I also don't understand why - Geneva and France seem to have quite a tidy arrangement with splitting taxes whilst allowing cross border working?

Hard borders are an indirect requirement of trade agreements. WTO rules don't actually say so, but it's the only practical way of meeting their requirements. The borders between Switzerland and the EU are hard borders when it comes to trade - Switzerland is not part of the customs union, but it does have some access to the single market, so checks etc do happen.



As for why, like the BREXITEERS, the Remainers, the Irish etc... they all believe it's best for their country. Whether it is or not you won't know until you try and even then you probably won't know for maybe 50 years!
__________________
"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 09.05.2021, 17:16
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,143
Groaned at 87 Times in 83 Posts
Thanked 18,854 Times in 8,395 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

To add to the OP, can someone explain how the whole thing would work? From what I read online, BoJo has to give the okay for a referendum and he's said he won't do that. If continues to say no then I guess any referendum is non-binding? Kinda like Brexit was non-binding?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09.05.2021, 17:28
John_H's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Up above Nyon
Posts: 4,077
Groaned at 113 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 5,488 Times in 2,120 Posts
John_H has a reputation beyond reputeJohn_H has a reputation beyond reputeJohn_H has a reputation beyond reputeJohn_H has a reputation beyond reputeJohn_H has a reputation beyond reputeJohn_H has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

I don't see how they can ask people to vote again when all of the unanswered questions from last time are still outstanding..

Oil, currency, military, monarchy, borders, fishing, healthcare, energy .. Huge list..

It should be a clear vote..
If you vote to leave, this will happen..
Not - if you vote for independence then we have no idea when or how any of this stuff will work out.

Sure, the bit of braveheart in us would love it.. but how will it work?
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank John_H for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 09.05.2021, 17:34
Talk to you later's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,376
Groaned at 55 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 2,583 Times in 940 Posts
Talk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

I don't care if Scotland becomes independent or not, but I can't stand Nicola Sturgeon.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Talk to you later for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 09.05.2021, 17:39
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 2,556
Groaned at 52 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 3,473 Times in 1,667 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post
I don't care if Scotland becomes independent or not, but I can't stand Nicola Sturgeon.
Agreed. On balance I'd give her a second referendum but bring in a new constitutional law forbidding repeatedly asking the same question so the 2nd time will be the Last.

I accept Brexit has changed the game - although depending on your perspective it's made the cost of independence much higher.

Also - what about NI? The unionist community there are almost all of a Scottish origin. I hope the SNP don't leave us to sort out that Scottish sourced disaster zone.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 09.05.2021, 17:46
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 2,556
Groaned at 52 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 3,473 Times in 1,667 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post
I think we are going to see an interesting reversal of arguments .

Virtually all pro Brexit arguments also have their pro independence equivalent . Unaccountable burocrats in Brussels / Westminster . They are stealing our fish . Long queues of lorries in Dover / Berwick . Hard border won’t work . Essential supplies of toilet paper . Project fear .

So it will be interesting to watch politicians on both sides of the debate eat their words and say the opposite of what they said previously .
Yes and No. The SNP have been clear that independence means rejoining the EU (although they don't even nearly meet the requirements).

So if you had a problem with the EU in 2016 there's a coherent way to be a unionist this time. Leave UK and stay out of Europe is not an option.

That said, I think if the SNP got independence they'd seriously consider not rejoining the EU. It makes zero sense - a loss of sovereignty AND a loss economically and they've been very vague about timings.

They don't give a stuff about the EU. That's a means to an end for them and end is independence.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 09.05.2021 at 17:58.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09.05.2021, 18:53
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post
can someone please explain to me, in simple terms, WHY the Scots want to be independent AND why England doesn't just let them go and do their own thing?
It's mainly just a long term resentment at being 'controlled' by a remote government. Scotland has historically retained a lot of it's legal process and rights, but in most day-to-day national decision-making the Scots assembly is very much subordinate to the Westminster government. They (the SNP and their followers) don't like it, and want more control over their own fiscal and social policy, amongst other things.

The fact that Scotland was unable to properly function as a nation without the Act of Union that took the Scots king and made him king of England as well, and the benefits it brought to Scotland, are largely ignored, and the fact that separation now would bring many economic problems is denied; whether Scotland could function independently is doubtful, although subject to debate, but there are many areas that the SNP just refuse to address, as pointed out by another poster.

You're very wrong, however, to suggest that it's England that won't let it happen. The United Kingdom has been a single entity in most respects for 400+ years - England doesn't really exist as a nation in its own right, so it's the whole UK, including most Scots residents, who don't want the separation to happen, not England in particular.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 09.05.2021, 19:52
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,714
Groaned at 294 Times in 239 Posts
Thanked 24,962 Times in 10,544 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post

They don't give a stuff about the EU. That's a means to an end for them and end is independence.
You mean the SNP or the man in the street ?

I think the SNP does very much like the EU.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09.05.2021, 21:37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Zurich
Posts: 428
Groaned at 47 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 973 Times in 486 Posts
John William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

The SNP will no doubt have to wait until the pandemic is over with Scotland back on the road to economic
recovery, along with the rest of the UK before chancing her arm with Indyref2 again.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank John William for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 09.05.2021, 21:54
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,508
Groaned at 217 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 7,421 Times in 3,283 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post
To add to the OP, can someone explain how the whole thing would work? From what I read online, BoJo has to give the okay for a referendum and he's said he won't do that. If continues to say no then I guess any referendum is non-binding? Kinda like Brexit was non-binding?
Well what do you think they will do, send the army into Scotland....
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 09.05.2021, 22:43
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Olten
Posts: 559
Groaned at 60 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 448 Times in 268 Posts
hoover1 has earned the respect of manyhoover1 has earned the respect of manyhoover1 has earned the respect of many
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post
Well what do you think they will do, send the army into Scotland....
Ah ... opening of the second front - north - as south to France is in it's full swing - nuclear subs to block fishing docks - they couldn't go to Scotland anyway... could they?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10.05.2021, 08:58
smileygreebins's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Schwyz
Posts: 558
Groaned at 30 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 1,100 Times in 331 Posts
smileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond reputesmileygreebins has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
...very much subordinate to the Westminster government. They (the SNP and their followers) don't like it, and want more control over their own fiscal and social policy, amongst other things..
So I've been told repeatedly that Scotland is paid significant subsidies from the UK coffers (more so than Wales), and receives additional monies that are pro-rata linked to any spend within London...IF this is correct, do you happen to know what additional fiscal advantages the SNP believe they can secure by being independent?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10.05.2021, 09:23
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 1,379
Groaned at 500 Times in 292 Posts
Thanked 3,412 Times in 1,471 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post
So I've been told repeatedly that Scotland is paid significant subsidies from the UK coffers (more so than Wales), and receives additional monies that are pro-rata linked to any spend within London...IF this is correct, do you happen to know what additional fiscal advantages the SNP believe they can secure by being independent?
There is very little in the way of an economic argument for an independent Scotland the way the economy there currently operates. That isn't to say this could change, but the SNP has never given any practicable solutions or policies to what they'd do to solve this issue.

Ultimately though, the economic argument doesn't really matter as it obviously isn't having the cut through it probably should have with the voters. This debate seems to be very much driven by emotions at present!
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 10.05.2021, 09:29
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,714
Groaned at 294 Times in 239 Posts
Thanked 24,962 Times in 10,544 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post
So I've been told repeatedly that Scotland is paid significant subsidies from the UK coffers (more so than Wales), and receives additional monies that are pro-rata linked to any spend within London...IF this is correct, do you happen to know what additional fiscal advantages the SNP believe they can secure by being independent?

lots of things they could tax, theoretically.

I guess they also anticipate they could get EU funding.

And to some extent this thinking is not entirely wrong. Small countries are often more agile. In a large country a policy that is good for group or region A may be counterproductive for group or region B.

This is also the thinking behind devolution.

There may be a huge gap in perspective and interests between say Glasgow and a remote island. But that gap is still smaller than the gap between the same island and London.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 10.05.2021, 11:45
Dack Rambo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,959
Groaned at 191 Times in 118 Posts
Thanked 1,924 Times in 947 Posts
Dack Rambo has an excellent reputationDack Rambo has an excellent reputationDack Rambo has an excellent reputationDack Rambo has an excellent reputation
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Does the SNP want Scotland to join the Euro (currency)? If so, have they set the exchange rate? Surely this is essential information for voters.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Dack Rambo for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 10.05.2021, 11:52
MsWorWoo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zürich Nord
Posts: 1,908
Groaned at 57 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 3,102 Times in 1,170 Posts
MsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post
I don't see how they can ask people to vote again when all of the unanswered questions from last time are still outstanding..

Oil, currency, military, monarchy, borders, fishing, healthcare, energy .. Huge list..

It should be a clear vote..
If you vote to leave, this will happen..
Not - if you vote for independence then we have no idea when or how any of this stuff will work out.

Sure, the bit of braveheart in us would love it.. but how will it work?
One of the big arguments for Scotland remaining in the UK was that if Scotland became in independent country, it would not be in the EU any more.

Also, Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc all have the same monarchy as the UK/England so that is a non-issue.

Scottish NHS is separate from England/Wales NHS, again, non-issue.

Borders and fishing have changed since the last referendum, so that is a BIG issue that requires a re-vote.

Energy, lots of wind and oil and gas in Scotland. They’ll be fine.

Money and military I’ll give you.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MsWorWoo for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 10.05.2021, 12:35
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: SNP, Scotland, Independence

Quote:
View Post

Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc all have the same monarchy as the UK/England so that is a non-issue.
They share the Monarch, but none of them do they share the Monarchy, i.e. she has completely different roles in those countries (and between them) from within the UK.

Quote:
View Post

Scottish NHS is separate from England/Wales NHS, again, non-issue.
Well, except for the funding...


Quote:
View Post

Energy, lots of wind and oil and gas in Scotland. They’ll be fine.
Most of it is outside territorial waters, and they don't own the production platforms and processing, even if it's based there. So as pointed out at the previous referendum, they are not self-sufficient in energy. Wind stuff is still a very small proportion of total production, and again, ownership of other power-producing processes like nuclear stations does not lie with them.

Last edited by Guest; 11.05.2021 at 16:42. Reason: Fixing quote
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
scotland, snp, uk politics




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Happy independence day cannut General off-topic 6 03.07.2017 14:20
Voting for Scottish Independence? ratbag International affairs/politics 833 25.08.2016 16:02
Indian Independence Day - August 15 kthilak Daily life 2 12.08.2014 20:58
Scottish Independence.... ross. International affairs/politics 86 04.05.2013 09:22
American Independence Day 2011 with the ACZ kitsya8604 Commercial events 0 20.06.2011 20:10


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 15:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0