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  #21  
Old 24.06.2021, 12:16
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

Everyone else on the tram was probably too occupied with staring at their phones.
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  #22  
Old 24.06.2021, 12:17
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

I suppose he was wearing a face mask, so it could have looked to the casual passerby as if he was taking a nap. I've certainly napped in the tram, especially so early in the morning. If he was sat there with his eyes open, it's a bit of a different story, of course.
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  #23  
Old 24.06.2021, 12:17
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Everyone else on the tram was probably too occupied with staring at their phones.
And writing comments of indignation about people not helping .
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  #24  
Old 24.06.2021, 12:18
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Well, I guess I should wake up every sleeping person on public transport and ask if they're fine. Tell that there's an obligation to help in the laws and only a doctor can certify death. Totally normal and polite behavior. I'm sure I'll get a lot of kind words. Specially from elder people.

Indeed.......if I were 15 and riding the tram with my friends, this would be a great trolling to sleeping adults. Good thing I'm not 15 anymore.
Oh, you are not dead???... sorry, you look so old... I thought I better check...
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Old 24.06.2021, 12:23
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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I thought Switzerland had a "Good samaritan" law - in that you are breaking the law if you do not go to the aid of someone in need.
My (limited) understanding of the Samaritan law is that you can't be held liable if, for example, you break someone's ribs whilst administering chest compressions in order to save their life.

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Yes. I should think that pretending you didn't notice will not really hold up in a court.
I'd be surprised if anyone wilfully recognized that he was dead and pretended not to notice. I think more likely is that people are simply self-involved, perhaps thinking about their work day ahead or reading their books or phones. I suspect I'm not particularly observant about the people around me when I'm catching trams.


I have had to administer chest compressions and CPR to someone who suffered a cardiac arrest. It was a terrifying and traumatising experience. I certainly can't blame anyone for being hesitant to put that into action on a complete stranger (assuming of course that they've had the relevant training).

It's very sad but I don't think there is blame to be laid. Perhaps the driver should have noticed before he/she did, but let's say after a 45 minute cycle, he got up and checked - realistically in the case of a massive cardiac arrest, the outcome would not have been any different.
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  #26  
Old 24.06.2021, 12:24
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

In the next issue Hercule Poirot will be investigating .

Who had the motive ?
Who had the alibi?
Who stands to gain ?

Coming to a cinema near you soon .

Hercule Poirot and Doctor Watson will be solving the greatest mystery of their careers , the Oscar nominated death on the number two tram. This epic adventure will take them all the way from Micafil to Lochergut and back and will feature a VBZ ticket inspector at Paradeplatz .
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  #27  
Old 24.06.2021, 12:27
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

On a tangential perspective, Zürich people can now claim big city status. Large cities have innumerable stories of this kind where the individual is lost in the multitude.
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  #28  
Old 24.06.2021, 12:28
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

Just a thought here .

Even if the person could have been helped and somebody recognized the fact in time .

How many people here know what to do in case of a cardiac arrest for example .

I sat through several first aid courses as a kid and maybe as a young adult when I did my driving test . But I’m pretty sure that I’ve forgotten most of the details . And I guess medical dos and donts will have evolved since then too

Maybe a refresher is something we should all be doing every 5 years or so ?
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  #29  
Old 24.06.2021, 12:40
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Just a thought here .

Even if the person could have been helped and somebody recognized the fact in time .

How many people here know what to do in case of a cardiac arrest for example .
They could have asked if a doctor or nurse (or indeed anyone) could offer assistance.

Just a thought here .

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And writing comments of indignation about people not helping .
Keep your sarcastic remarks to yourself.

Obviously we see things differently.

There's another thread on here where twenty people or so were stepping over someone having a fit on a train - so they could get to the exit.

Are you going to tell me that perhaps they thought he wasn't having an epileptic seizure but was in fact breakdancing?

Some people help - others don't. I do but I appreciate from your tone that you are tin the not helping camp.
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  #30  
Old 24.06.2021, 12:48
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Some people help - others don't. I do but I appreciate from your tone that you are tin the not helping camp.
Definitely judging by your own long and continuous track record of passive aggressive Unprovoked personal attacks and your little snarky PMs here on the EF , you are not somebody who even appreciates what helpfulness or goodwill mean.
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  #31  
Old 24.06.2021, 12:53
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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I have had to administer chest compressions and CPR to someone who suffered a cardiac arrest. It was a terrifying and traumatising experience. I certainly can't blame anyone for being hesitant to put that into action on a complete stranger (assuming of course that they've had the relevant training).

It's very sad but I don't think there is blame to be laid. Perhaps the driver should have noticed before he/she did, but let's say after a 45 minute cycle, he got up and checked - realistically in the case of a massive cardiac arrest, the outcome would not have been any different.
I can well believe it. I had to put pressure on someone's injury who has just been stabbed and that was bad enough. Nearly bled to death, and I was extremely shaken. If I had known the stabber was still present I genuinely think I'd just have ran away.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 24.06.2021 at 14:10.
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  #32  
Old 24.06.2021, 13:01
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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I thought Switzerland had a "Good samaritan" law - in that you are breaking the law if you do not go to the aid of someone in need.
(Why a civilised country needs such a law is another question entirely)

Pretty pointless law really as you could just answer that you didn't notice if questioned by the Police as to why you didn't help.

I guess the truth of the matter is most people are so engrossed in their mobile phones that they have absolutely no idea of what is going on around them.

This story is shocking but also a sad indictment of today's society.
You mean the Guilty bystander"
Those familiar with Seinfeld will understand...
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  #33  
Old 24.06.2021, 13:20
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Oh, you are not dead???... sorry, you look so old... I thought I better check...


Tom
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  #34  
Old 24.06.2021, 13:23
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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My (limited) understanding of the Samaritan law is that you can't be held liable if, for example, you break someone's ribs whilst administering chest compressions in order to save their life.
Properly administered chest compressions frequently result in fractured or broken ribs / sternum.

Particularly where the recipient is elderly, skinny, or young, or where the person administering the compressions is athletic.

Small price to pay compared with the alternative.
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  #35  
Old 24.06.2021, 13:30
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Properly administered chest compressions frequently result in fractured or broken ribs / sternum.

Particularly where the recipient is elderly, skinny, or young, or where the person administering the compressions is athletic.

Small price to pay compared with the alternative.
Absolutely. But also the reason why this law does have to exist:
a) its now a legal duty to help
b) the person helping has a clear legal protection for things he is doing in a very stressful event

Simply put:
1. no, its not ok to ignore a person needing help.
2. Yes, its ok to smash a window if you need to do so to rescue a person in need.
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  #36  
Old 24.06.2021, 13:55
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Just a thought here .

Even if the person could have been helped and somebody recognized the fact in time .

How many people here know what to do in case of a cardiac arrest for example .

I sat through several first aid courses as a kid and maybe as a young adult when I did my driving test . But I’m pretty sure that I’ve forgotten most of the details . And I guess medical dos and donts will have evolved since then too

Maybe a refresher is something we should all be doing every 5 years or so ?
I know what to do as well as where I'm most likely to find and how to use an AED because I'm a volunteer firefighter but I agree that FREE refresher courses should be available for anyone who wants to do it. It would also be great if companies offered such courses regularly to their staff, e.g. over lunch, with lunch provided.

The reason being that doing CPR properly is exhausting, so it's best to take turns and switch every two minutes. Therefore, having more people with this skill in the general population will increase the odds of at least two people being available to save a life. Usually, people will jump into action once one person has made a start, so that's further argument in favour of making sure that a large number of people feel confident to provide first aid.

You will also need someone to go on the hunt for an AED*, because you may have to wait 20 minutes for the paramedics to arrive in town when there is heavy traffic and you would benefit from the technical assistance in the meantime. Being reanimated with an AED within the first five minutes of collapsing greatly increases the patient's chances of survival. You should obviously only go and look for an AED if there is someone to perform CPR on the patient and after the emergency services have been called - they may also be able to tell you where the nearest device is.

Even if you are fit enough to keep at it properly (100 - 120 strong compressions per minute) on your own for longer, your knees may have something to say after a few minutes of kneeling on concrete or stone with most of your weight on them; I recommend taking off your jumper or jacket and using it as padding, you will be too hot soon anyway. If you manage to save the person, it will have been worth ruining it, if you don't, you probably won't want to wear those clothes again anyway, bad memories.

Having been in a situation of trying to reanimate someone who had a heart attack to no avail, all I can say is: try anyway, even if you are not 100% confident or you don't think it'll do any good (within reason, don't endanger yourself and don't do it if you never actually learned how to do it, watching Grey's Anatomy is not a substitute for an actual course). Yes, it's terrible to work at saving a life and failing but at least you tried. In my situation, there were only two of us who knew what to do, the rest just stood around and watched someone die. I would have felt infinitely worse being helpless like them. The medical report concluded that he was already past saving when we started reanimation, so we were not to blame for him not surviving. But we were able to tell the deceased's family that we tried our hardest to save him and that he was not alone, that someone cared. That seemed to bring them some small comfort.

* There is a map with most of the available AED (German language only, but covers all of Switzerland) thanks to a chap from near Gossau, he set it up. They recently also launched an app (February 2021), (Android / iOS - again, this is currently only available in German). Both options tell you if there are special conditions, e.g. if it is a government building, there may only be access during office hours. Not all of them are registered, feel free to let them know about any that they have missed, you can do this directly from the App or using the button on the website. If your place of work doesn't have its own AED, it may be worthwhile checking where the nearest ones are and making sure everyone knows where that is. You could also do this for your home, even if it's just for Murphy's Law reasons, i.e. what you prepare for never actually happens.

As a rule (but unfortunately not always, as it's not mandatory), the following places will have a device available: train stations, schools, shopping centres, government buildings, police and fire stations, medical practices (if one of those is nearby, I would also try and grab one of the medical staff to come and assist), large office buildings (ask at reception) and public sports facilities like swimming pools.
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  #37  
Old 24.06.2021, 14:04
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Just a thought here .

Even if the person could have been helped and somebody recognized the fact in time .

How many people here know what to do in case of a cardiac arrest for example .

I sat through several first aid courses as a kid and maybe as a young adult when I did my driving test . But I’m pretty sure that I’ve forgotten most of the details . And I guess medical dos and donts will have evolved since then too

Maybe a refresher is something we should all be doing every 5 years or so ?
No defibrillators in trams? There was a time they put them up everywhere. With short advice on how to use them. (Although I admit I'd still be kind of worried about applying them, specially as I wouldn't even know whether that is what the lifeless stranger needs).
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  #38  
Old 24.06.2021, 14:12
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Definitely judging by your own long and continuous track record of passive aggressive Unprovoked personal attacks and your little snarky PMs here on the EF , you are not somebody who even appreciates what helpfulness or goodwill mean.

Really? What PMs? How do you get to read other people's PMs?

If you think attacks on you, MusicChick and Tony Clifton are unprovoked, I suggest you look in that mirror.
For the record, how many PMs have I sent you? None?


Do you want to see the last PMs I sent.

The last one was private and was thanks to another poster.

The last four were about thread deletions.

A couple more were replies for thanks for help.

Then there were some about some PMs I allegedly sent for which I, and the mods, had no record.

And that is in the last four years.

So please post all these PMs you have said I sent because I haven't seen them.
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  #39  
Old 24.06.2021, 14:20
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Also surprised that nobody at his work apparently noticed he wasn't there?

He had a history of skiving and going on 6 hour long tram joyrides
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  #40  
Old 24.06.2021, 14:24
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Would you mind settling this somewhere else? This thread has the potential to be useful and an "evergreen", so it would be a shame if your bickering derailed it or even meant it has to be closed.
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