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Old 24.06.2021, 14:29
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Would you mind settling this somewhere else? This thread has the potential to be useful and an "evergreen", so it would be a shame if your bickering derailed it or even meant it has to be closed.
Ideally, it should have been settled with a report to the mods and a banning for me but that never happened.

But yes, I take your point .
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Old 24.06.2021, 14:31
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

I occasionally see people on the tram who have fallen asleep. It has never occurred to me to wake them up because I don't know which stop they should be getting off at. I just let them sleep peacefully and leave them undisturbed.

I imagine everyone else who saw the old man did the same thing. Also, if you are on the tram for just a few stops, you would unlikely notice anything. You would have to be on the tram for a while and actually observe him to notice that something was not right.

I agree with the other comments here that the tram driver should have noticed something wrong because most drivers do a walk through of the tram at the end of the route. Ok, if it's really early in the morning and you see someone sleeping, you might just leave them be. But 6 hours?? There may have been driver changes during this time, so that might partly explain why the old man went unnoticed.
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  #43  
Old 24.06.2021, 14:33
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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I guess the truth of the matter is most people are so engrossed in their mobile phones that they have absolutely no idea of what is going on around them.
I think this is giving them too much credit, most of them probably wouldn't even care anyway.
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  #44  
Old 24.06.2021, 14:37
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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I think this is giving them too much credit, most of them probably wouldn't even care anyway.
I think you're right but I got slated on this thread for saying it.

Here are some posts from the last Good Samaritan thread:

At Altstetten railway station last week I was unlucky enough to get stung on the arm by a wasp a few minutes before the train arrived. So there I am in visible agony and what do the people around me do? Ask if I am alright? Nope, just give me a dirty look and return to their copy of Blick.

I am actually allergic to wasp stings so on the train I found an available seat in and started to get out my allergy-emergency set (a small vial with pills in) and start to check the dosage. Of course my arm by this time is swelling up and I have a big red spot where the sting went in.

Opposite me is a bloke in a suit with a laptop. Again, I am in obvious distress and what does this guy do? Ask if I am okay? Offer assistance? Nope - he f...s off to another seat.

Whenever I encounter someone in obvious distress, I always ask if the person needs help - just part of my upbringing. For a country that invented the Red Cross, the reactions of some people here just beggars belief.


-----
A few weeks ago something similar happend to me: Whilst cycling back home at night time, a pedestrian walking on the street in the dark crossed my way, he touched me, I fell and hurt my ellbow which then started bleeding. The crowd around only looked at me, even called me names - and walked away. After a few minutes, two young Italians(!) helped me up and asked me if I needed help, they really cared.


----
Recently I have had the misfortune to break down in Switzerland and France on 2 separate occasions with different people.
No-one stopped in Switzerland but in France at least 20 cars stopped to offer assistance

----

It wouldn't surprise me that no one helped after hearing a story from a friend. He has epilepsy and had a fit on the train from the airport on one of his business visits to Switzerland. So there he was - lying in the isle unable to speak looking up at least 20 people stepping over him to get through the carriage and not one person asked him if he needed assistance.
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Old 24.06.2021, 14:54
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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I occasionally see people on the tram who have fallen asleep. It has never occurred to me to wake them up because I don't know which stop they should be getting off at. I just let them sleep peacefully and leave them undisturbed.

I imagine everyone else who saw the old man did the same thing. Also, if you are on the tram for just a few stops, you would unlikely notice anything. You would have to be on the tram for a while and actually observe him to notice that something was not right.

I agree with the other comments here that the tram driver should have noticed something wrong because most drivers do a walk through of the tram at the end of the route. Ok, if it's really early in the morning and you see someone sleeping, you might just leave them be. But 6 hours?? There may have been driver changes during this time, so that might partly explain why the old man went unnoticed.
yes this 100%
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  #46  
Old 24.06.2021, 14:57
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

Sorry, all good and bad arguments pro and con helping a stranger while not being sure if he is a drunk man or fell asleep out of fatigue and etc… However, a common sense, being vigilant and perhaps a little bit of human care would have come a long way. How come the people from poorer nations can be more open minded and supportive to such things than advanced societies with all the technologies available? Mind boggling how we advanced as a society and it wouldn’t cross anybody’s mind that a fellow human is in need of help. Something is not right, don’t you think so?
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  #47  
Old 24.06.2021, 14:59
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

In the age of COVID, who would administer mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
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  #48  
Old 24.06.2021, 15:01
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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yes this 100%
In this case you were not there so you didn't see the body so you cannot say that he looked asleep or dead.

This must be one of those cases where the muscle relaxation on death did not cause the bladder and sphincter muscles to relax releasing urine and faeces.

The smell alone must have been noticeable after a lot less than six hours.
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  #49  
Old 24.06.2021, 15:03
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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In the age of COVID, who would administer mouth-to-mouth resuscitation?
Who would be so callous as to think about that first?
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Old 24.06.2021, 15:08
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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In this case you were not there so you didn't see the body so you cannot say that he looked asleep or dead.

This must be one of those cases where the muscle relaxation on death did not cause the bladder and sphincter muscles to relax releasing urine and faeces.

The smell alone must have been noticeable after a lot less than six hours.
given you groaned me and not the post I was agreeing with means your comment is nothing more than your usual act of passive aggression.
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  #51  
Old 24.06.2021, 15:14
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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I occasionally see people on the tram who have fallen asleep. It has never occurred to me to wake them up because I don't know which stop they should be getting off at. I just let them sleep peacefully and leave them undisturbed.
This is where I am totally different from you. In my head all people who are on a train or tram need to get off at a certain stop, but if they are asleep how will they know if they will miss their stop or not? I am sure I have woken other passengers at least 20 times since I arrived in Switzerland, and it was never received badly by the person who I woke up. One of my best friends fell asleep on a train one of her first days back to work after maternity leave. Due to sleep deprivation she couldn't stay awake during her train journey, but none of the dozens of people who disembarked at Lausanne woke her to ensure she wasn't missing her stop, she ended up going all the way to Bern, and was hours late for work. Sure it's her own fault, but I'd like to think a caring fellow passenger could have prevented this from happening.
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  #52  
Old 24.06.2021, 15:15
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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given you groaned me and not the post I was agreeing with means your comment is nothing more than your usual act of passive aggression.
I've groaned that one as well now. (Are all your groans to me in this thread passive aggressive or a sign of something else?)

Sure the driver was at fault too but as none of use were there, we cannot be sure if the other passengers just thought he was asleep (and not unconscious) or, as the son of the dead man in the article suggests, people lacked the moral fibre to investigate?

However, my list of posts from the last thread here suggests it's the latter (or a mixture of both).
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  #53  
Old 24.06.2021, 15:22
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

My main concern on this post is that attitudes could be changing, with more awareness brought to this issue it might be a changing of society. A society who puts down their phones and stares at people with their eyes closed on a tram, slowly creeping closer to here hear you breathing, gently pressing their ear close to your beating heart unbidden in a conscientious act.

I will never be able to sleep on a tram again.
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  #54  
Old 24.06.2021, 15:26
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Who would be so callous as to think about that first?
Has nothing to do with callous but rather one of self-preservation.

European Resucitation Council has issued guidelines on how to conduct CPR while limiting exposure to COVID:
https://www.erc.edu/sites/5714e77d5e...pdf?1591367903

One point is to focus on chest compressions while leaving out mouth-to-mouth.

Advice of German Statutory Accident Insurance goes in the same direction with a caveat for children, where mouth to mouth resuscitation has a greater benefit than with adults.
https://publikationen.dguv.de/widget...d/article/3833
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Old 24.06.2021, 15:27
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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My main concern on this post is that attitudes could be changing, with more awareness brought to this issue it might be a changing of society. A society who puts down their phones and stares at people with their eyes closed on a tram, slowly creeping closer to here hear you breathing, gently pressing their ear close to your beating heart unbidden in a conscientious act.

I will never be able to sleep on a tram again.
If anyone did that to me on a tram I’d either drop dead from a heart attack on the spot or scream so loud the other passengers would think a murder was being committed.
That would totally creep me out.

Last edited by Belgianmum; 24.06.2021 at 15:44.
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  #56  
Old 24.06.2021, 15:29
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Old 24.06.2021, 15:31
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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It wouldn't surprise me that no one helped after hearing a story from a friend. He has epilepsy and had a fit on the train from the airport on one of his business visits to Switzerland. So there he was - lying in the isle unable to speak looking up at least 20 people stepping over him to get through the carriage and not one person asked him if he needed assistance.
When I took the train to the office there was a guy wearing always a bright-colored band in the shoulder than said epilepsy. Never happened anything to him in the 3 years I took the morning train. If the problem can happen at any time and some help is expected from strangers, the guessing game could be shortened a lot.

I guess you're mistaking our strange sense of humor for being sociopath monsters. One of the most common things is helping people with baby strollers in public transport. The other one is rolling the ramp for wheelchairs in buses. As nightbus rider, I've been woke up by fellow drunkdards, or waken up other buddies when they get to the stop near home.
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Old 24.06.2021, 15:32
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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One point is to focus on chest compressions while leaving out mouth-to-mouth.
This is the new way of thinking and is good for most cases except with children and near-drowning.

I think most people who actually step in generally don't think about their own safety first (unless the training kicks in) but just the welfare of the patient.


The only time I sat back and thought about not doing CPR was to a dog that had been run over. I didn't but I did take him to the vet as the owner couldn't face handling her dog.
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Old 24.06.2021, 15:32
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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My main concern on this post is that attitudes could be changing, with more awareness brought to this issue it might be a changing of society. A society who puts down their phones and stares at people with their eyes closed on a tram, slowly creeping closer to here hear you breathing, gently pressing their ear close to your beating heart unbidden in a conscientious act.

I will never be able to sleep on a tram again.
Sniffing loudly to find out whether you've lost your water.
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Old 24.06.2021, 15:33
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Re: Dead body on Zurich tram...

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Definitely judging by your own long and continuous track record of passive aggressive Unprovoked personal attacks and your little snarky PMs here on the EF , you are not somebody who even appreciates what helpfulness or goodwill mean.
I know Tom personally and he definitely would be one of the first people to help out. The above post is untrue on many accounts.

Back to the topic: When does a person start looking dead? Surely their skin colour changes and lack of complete movement should have been a clue that something was wrong.
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