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  #21  
Old 06.07.2021, 03:14
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

Just to be clear, when I said 'talk with your kid', I meant that. I didn't mean 'let the kid decide for you', but explain what you'd like to do, brainstorm about how you two would approach that together and things like that.

It would be very very bad to put the burden of deciding what to do on the kid, that I agree with.

Also, staying because of kid in something you perceive as suffering is the same shit as mothers who drop out of education because of kids, and kids feel that burden whole their lives. Or even worse, in some arguing, mother tells that out loud 'because of that I didn't x'.
Never EVER do that to your child. Emotional damage that one such sentence will do is unmeasurable. And takes a lot of therapy to heal that.


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Then, once you see experiments with children from 6 to 13 .. you see how even the notion of "time" is not clear. If you ask them, "you can have this candy right now or you can have 4 times more candy but in 4 hours" the child is going to choose always the first option.Because,they dont have the notion of "4-5-10hours" or let's say they have but still "in 4 hours lot of candy" does not motivate them since that's like an eternity ... so straight away candy - works the best.
This one isn't true by what I've read about such experiments.
There are kids which will take candy now, but there are kids which won't.
Also, there is some correlation between behavior as kids in that experiment and later in life - those who are able to wait as kids, have different traits as adults from those who weren't.
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  #22  
Old 06.07.2021, 04:41
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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My employer would happily relocate me to our London office ....
Would your employer considering sending you there for just, say a block of 3 or 6 months, rather than a full relocation? That might give you a chance to try out London for size, to see whether you feel strange and friendless and the shine has gone, or whether you fall back into London's arms and know that you have come home. During that time, you could do some of London, whatever that means, for you: big sporting events, museums, shows, bookshops, interest groups, lectures, shopping, friends, etc..

In between you could fly backwards and forwards to see your son, at least as long as you were permitted to, within any covid restrictions.

As someone else further up in the thread asked: if you no longer had a home in Switzerland, would you have a place to stay when you visited, that would feel comfortable for you and your son? Since you're on reasonably good terms with his mother, would you be welcome to use the couch, in their home? And that, without sending the wrong signals to the boy? Or do you have friends who would host you and him?

Alternatively, depending on the type of work arrangement you set up with your employer, might you be able to continue to have your home base - and permit - here in Switzerland (= confirmed to re-enter), and only fly out to London for some working weeks or fortnights?
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  #23  
Old 06.07.2021, 09:01
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

I'm surprised nobody jumped at OP's jugular..."What????You hate living in Switzerland??????""How dare you, who the hell do you think you are?" blah blah blah.


@OP,

My unsolicited advice and strong opinion:
Don't move unless you all move. You have a responsibility and that is your child. You are not stuck in a horrible place. You have a good job, can travel. If you're doing this now, your relation with your son will probably never be the same. Divorce is traumatic for most kids in my experience. Even when it's on good terms. Don't make it even worse by moving from the country your child lives in.

Stay strong and try to make the best out of living here, you know the proverb: wherever you go, there you are. You don't know if you'll be happier in another place, far away from your kid and after breaking his heart.
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  #24  
Old 06.07.2021, 09:02
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

I moved here as a single mum to a 3 year old, her father moved to near London to be with his now wife.
Originally we planned one week every four (before school started) but (long story, with lots of mental health reasons), so she only went to him every couple of months. Once school started, and he was (another long story with lots of legal reasons) we went to court here and he was granted every other short holiday and half the summer holiday. We still added extra time, one of the two weeks on the ‘off’ holidays.
We also skype non-there parent twice a week.
Does my daughter wish her father were closer? Yes.
Would she prefer her father was here, or I was there, and unhappy? No.
Even with Covid, she still has her parental visits, (just no extra-judicial ones), it works.

Sounds like OP has a good arrangement planned. Consult with the kid, explain how you feel, conflicted. But I see no reason why London-Zug co-parenting would not work in this day and age.
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  #25  
Old 06.07.2021, 09:11
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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I'm surprised nobody jumped at OP's jugular..."What????You hate living in Switzerland??????""How dare you, who the hell do you think you are?" blah blah blah.


@OP,

My unsolicited advice and strong opinion:
Don't move unless you all move. You have a responsibility and that is your child. You are not stuck in a horrible place. You have a good job, can travel. If you're doing this now, your relation with your son will probably never be the same. Divorce is traumatic for most kids in my experience. Even when it's on good terms. Don't make it even worse by moving from the country your child lives in.

Stay strong and try to make the best out of living here, you know the proverb: wherever you go, there you are. You don't know if you'll be happier in another place, far away from your kid and after breaking his heart.
You are basically saying that the OP should ignore his own feelings and keep living in a place he hate living in, just to be next to his child. The end result will be that he will not have a happy life and life is way too short not to be happy. His son would then grow up with an unhappy father and that is a sad thing to feel and witness.

In the modern age of travel (COVID notwithstanding) he can be a parent from London and still see his kid every couple of weeks if he really wants to by hopping on a plane. The difference is that he would then be happy and motivated and the kid would see this. is it ideal? No, but then the moment you get divorced with kids then ideal goes out of the window and you have to make the best of a bad situation.
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  #26  
Old 06.07.2021, 09:16
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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I'm surprised nobody jumped at OP's jugular..."What????You hate living in Switzerland??????""How dare you, who the hell do you think you are?" blah blah blah.
Trust me, I seriously considered doing so.

Tom
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  #27  
Old 06.07.2021, 09:20
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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Trust me, I seriously considered doing so.

Tom
I know you did.

I had my moment too.


But yeah, I know it's do-able and done my many (co=parenting from different countries), glad if things work for them, I just happen to see these things differently.
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  #28  
Old 06.07.2021, 09:22
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

OK... some thoughts.

First of all. It is great that you are thinking about these things. Congrats. It also sounds like you are balancing a tough situation with a divorce and a kid and you have a freindly relationship with your ex. So many people don't even achieve this. Take a second and pat yourself on the back for all you've done!

Now... You should not discuss this with your son and give him any responsibility in this. Kids do not have the responsibility to make their parents happy and any part of this you share with him will put him in a bind that makes him chose between telling you what you want to here and saying what he wants to say. This is amazingly unfair. This doesn't mean you can't be honest with your son. You can tell him that things are tough for you right now and you are working to make them better. This kind of honesty is great for kids to hear... They go through tough things as well and it is super important for them to know that they are not alone with this.

But you also should not stay in a situation in which you are unhappy. So, how to fix this...

I think you should ... give yourself a 1 year project: make yourself happy (in Switzerland).
Everyone needs different things to be happy. What is it that you are missing and what is keeping you from being happy in Switzerland? I'll bet it is easier to fix than imagine.
  • Do you need a new relationship?
  • More sports?
  • More time with family?
  • More friends?
  • More time with friends?
  • A hobby?
  • Something different in the job?
  • Do you need to accept something internal about yourself?
Think of this project as a present for both you and for your son. Not only will you be a better father if you are happier, but you'll also give your son the gift of showing him that it is possible to make a big step in personal growth while middle aged. Now.. If you don't know where to start, make an appointment with a psychologist. Maybe they can't help you, but maybe they can?
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  #29  
Old 06.07.2021, 09:30
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

Thanks for all the replies and yes, it's a tough decision to make for all involved. Just a couple of points from my side:

1) I won't go anywhere until I fully understand what the "new normal" looks like after covid. I have no idea how easy it will be to travel between countries and I cannot make this move if it means I have to spend time in quarantine or pay for a PCR test every time I enter the UK or CH. So realistically I would make a decision next year once I have a better view of things.

2) My ex-wife has a new partner (they don't live together yet afaik) so while I feel bad about the extra strain this might place on her I take some comfort from the fact that she is settled here and is happy and has some support.

3) I don't want to end up resenting my son later on down the road if I stay here and then can't get back to London in my 40's. Jobs in my field get harder and harder to come by in your 40's and it's not clear that the option to relocate will always be on the cards for me.

4) I have thought long and hard about whether or not I am chasing nostalgia and to be honest I have no idea what London (or any big city) will be like post covid. What I do know is that, having lived in both NYC and London, I prefer fast paced, aggressive and career focused cities over quality of life/work life balance cities. I travel back to London regularly for work (at least before covid) and so it's not like I last lived there 15 years ago.

5) Another issue is logistics. I would aim to fly out Friday afternoon's from London, arrive in Zug that evening and spend Fri/Sat night in a hotel with my son before returning him to mom on Sunday afternoon before I fly back. Pricy yes, haha, and not ideal as my son has his own bedroom in my current place so it's something else I think about. On the other hand, when he's older I think it might be cool for him to split our weekends together between Zug/London. He was born in London (speaks English) and I think it would open up some doors for him if he ever wanted to come here for university or work.

Thanks again for all your help/advice!
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  #30  
Old 06.07.2021, 09:41
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

DivorcedDad, you seem to have thought of pretty much everything. I guess these plans will work as long as you won't have a new family yourself, or at least not very soon.

Anyways, don't listen to us here, do whatever you think it's best for your kid and yourself.

Good luck and stay strong.
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  #31  
Old 06.07.2021, 09:58
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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You are basically saying that the OP should ignore his own feelings and keep living in a place he hate living in, just to be next to his child.
Yes.

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The end result will be that he will not have a happy life and life is way too short not to be happy.
Grown-ups usually know how to fix that. Kids do not. OP divorced his wife, not his kid.

Being a parent sometimes means prioritizing happiness of your child before your own. I think it creates a feeling of security, the opposite of abandonement. If I was in OP's situation, I would wait and do it later. I don't want to sound judgy, just offer another point of view. OP comes across as a thoughtful and devoted parent.

Last edited by MusicChick; 06.07.2021 at 11:04.
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  #32  
Old 06.07.2021, 10:03
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

From bitter personal experience and that of others, children very often blame themselves for the end of their parents' marriage.

At 8 years your boy will already have understood what is going on and arrived at the above conclusion. Please talk to him.

Leaving for London could be interpreted as running away.

London is a dirty dump.

In 10 years your boy will be potentially 100% independent.

A parent's responsibility is to protect, nurture, educate and provide for their offspring - and much more. That's what you took on when you fathered him...
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  #33  
Old 06.07.2021, 10:15
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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You (GM) are basically saying that the OP should ignore his own feelings and keep living in a place he hate living in, just to be next to his child.

Don't disagree with you fully, but when YOU DECIDE to bring a child into this world, then your "own feelings" should not be the most important priority.
It is not guaranteed that moving to London will make him a happy person. Home is where the heart is! You can be a semi good dad to a child from far away, but it is no substitute to actually being here for your child.


Then again, I don't understand people who breed, so carry on
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  #34  
Old 06.07.2021, 10:23
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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Then again, I don't understand people who breed, so carry on
I didn't - until I had children of my own.
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  #35  
Old 06.07.2021, 10:27
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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London is a dirty dump.

I know many people who live in London who would disagree with that.

Zurich has the lake.
London has so, so many beautiful parks and there's always so much to do and eating out is so much better in London.
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  #36  
Old 06.07.2021, 10:38
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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I didn't - until I had children of my own.
You wanted them, right? I never wanted them Also it is not like you ever have the option to get a refund, I have 0 desire to deal with any baggage involved with having kids.

Parents are like religious salespeople, "You don't know what you are missing", I know very well what I will miss if I breed
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  #37  
Old 06.07.2021, 11:05
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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I didn't - until I had children of my own.
My favourite is: "I was a wonderful parent before I had children."
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  #38  
Old 06.07.2021, 18:42
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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Thanks for all the replies and yes, it's a tough decision to make for all involved. Just a couple of points from my side:

1) I won't go anywhere until I fully understand what the "new normal" looks like after covid. I have no idea how easy it will be to travel between countries and I cannot make this move if it means I have to spend time in quarantine or pay for a PCR test every time I enter the UK or CH. So realistically I would make a decision next year once I have a better view of things.

2) My ex-wife has a new partner (they don't live together yet afaik) so while I feel bad about the extra strain this might place on her I take some comfort from the fact that she is settled here and is happy and has some support.

3) I don't want to end up resenting my son later on down the road if I stay here and then can't get back to London in my 40's. Jobs in my field get harder and harder to come by in your 40's and it's not clear that the option to relocate will always be on the cards for me.

4) I have thought long and hard about whether or not I am chasing nostalgia and to be honest I have no idea what London (or any big city) will be like post covid. What I do know is that, having lived in both NYC and London, I prefer fast paced, aggressive and career focused cities over quality of life/work life balance cities. I travel back to London regularly for work (at least before covid) and so it's not like I last lived there 15 years ago.

5) Another issue is logistics. I would aim to fly out Friday afternoon's from London, arrive in Zug that evening and spend Fri/Sat night in a hotel with my son before returning him to mom on Sunday afternoon before I fly back. Pricy yes, haha, and not ideal as my son has his own bedroom in my current place so it's something else I think about. On the other hand, when he's older I think it might be cool for him to split our weekends together between Zug/London. He was born in London (speaks English) and I think it would open up some doors for him if he ever wanted to come here for university or work.

Thanks again for all your help/advice!
Zurich has a work life balance??? I would also echo previous people about shaking things up. London most DEFINITELY is not the same place it used to be, purely opinion but I think it's gone down the chute.

And without being a d**k about it.........

This isn't really about you, it's about your child. Responsibility is never easy and to be honest I think "flying away from your problems" is just frankly unfair.

But purely my opinion.
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  #39  
Old 06.07.2021, 18:49
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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On the other hand, when he's older I think it might be cool for him to split our weekends together between Zug/London. He was born in London (speaks English) and I think it would open up some doors for him if he ever wanted to come here for university or work.
By the time he is olde enough to travel on his own, he will also have his own friends and life. He'll want to be off doing suff with his friends etc...
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Old 06.07.2021, 19:02
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Re: Divorced Dad - to stay or to leave?

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I know many people who live in London who would disagree with that.

Zurich has the lake.
London has so, so many beautiful parks and there's always so much to do and eating out is so much better in London.
It really depends on where in London, plenty of very nice places & many dumps that are now trendy.
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