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Old 30.07.2021, 13:50
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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They significantly reduce transmission
They don't. They reduce it slightly, and not enough to warrant a two tiered society.

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and the seriousness of the cases
Then it shouldn't bother you then if it's only the unvaccinated who will suffer more serious cases.
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  #42  
Old 30.07.2021, 13:55
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

@TC, SQ & amogles - do you want to take this pointless and unrelated argument to the Coronavirus thread?

I've ignored all three of you but you're still managing to fill up the first page of this thread with rubbish.
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  #43  
Old 30.07.2021, 13:57
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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They don't. They reduce it slightly, and not enough to warrant a two tiered society.
Why do you think it is only slightly? Also, there are so many tiers in society today - this is just an additional one for a very good cause. Why do you think it will be just a two tiered society?

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20...nsmission.aspx

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Then it shouldn't bother you then if it's only the unvaccinated who will suffer more serious cases.
My best friend at work has lupus and is on immunosuppressants, I worry for her constantly. Also, while it does protect well from transmission, I am nervous about an unvaccinated person coming into work with a full viral load that will increase the chances of vaccinated people getting sick. I do have asthma and it is always in the back of my mind that maybe I will be one of those people who could get really sick despite my vaccination.
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  #44  
Old 30.07.2021, 13:58
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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@TC, SQ & amogles - do you want to take this pointless and unrelated argument to the Coronavirus thread?

I've ignored all three of you but you're still managing to fill up the first page of this thread with rubbish.
OK, apologies!
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  #45  
Old 30.07.2021, 14:08
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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@TC, SQ & amogles - do you want to take this pointless and unrelated argument to the Coronavirus thread?

I've ignored all three of you but you're still managing to fill up the first page of this thread with rubbish.
Questions been answered and we'll just await feedback, don't like the rest of it, then I suggest you keep ignoring
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  #46  
Old 30.07.2021, 14:18
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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You and your little chronies somehow seem to think you own this forum & are directly responsible for why this is no longer a happy & open place. I should be able to give my opinion and not be attacked for it just as anybody.
Demanding everybody do as you do, or else lose their job, their house, their livelihood, is not an opinion. It is an unpleasant authoritarian streak. It's seeking revenge for disagreement.

As for running people off this forum, that is something you and your chronies have been delighting in. I don't want to run anybody off, just wish they would debate with facts and arguments rather than absolutes.
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  #47  
Old 30.07.2021, 15:04
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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I find it so odd how little some people can comprehend basic language when it doesn't suit their chosen narrative.
Resorting to ad hominems or character judgements is tacit confirmation of having lost the argument.
You'd argue your case rationally instead if you thought you (still) have a leg to stand on.
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  #48  
Old 30.07.2021, 15:14
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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I find it hard to explain why IT companies would ask for mandatory return to office and mandatory vaccination if work from home could have been an option.
They won't. This topic has been discussed in every covid board in most companies where remote work is possible. Long covid short the result was that the scenario of continuing remote working is preferable to the scenario of letting unvaccinated people go.

The estimation some months ago was that 50% of people would be vaccinated and 50% not vaccinated. If threatened to be fired half of them would get the vaccine and the other half would not. So you would have to let 25% percent of staff go. The result was categorized as catastrophic, because even if the percent would be lower than 25%, you wouldn't choose the people to be fired and you would risk to let go a lot of people in key roles.

In fact it was assumed that people in key roles were much probable not to take the vaccine. Subsequently the scenario was dropped and replaced with remote work.
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  #49  
Old 30.07.2021, 15:26
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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They won't. This topic has been discussed in every covid board in most companies where remote work is possible. Long covid short the result was that the scenario of continuing remote working is preferable to the scenario of letting unvaccinated people go.

The estimation some months ago was that 50% of people would be vaccinated and 50% not vaccinated. If threatened to be fired half of them would get the vaccine and the other half would not. So you would have to let 25% percent of staff go. The result was categorized as catastrophic, because even if the percent would be lower than 25%, you wouldn't choose the people to be fired and you would risk to let go a lot of people in key roles.

In fact it was assumed that people in key roles were much probable not to take the vaccine. Subsequently the scenario was dropped and replaced with remote work.
Apparently 67.835% of statistics are made up on the spot! …Apologies, but yours appears to meet that definition.

A free treatment that could prevent you from dying, being seriously ill or having to isolate. What’s not to like?
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  #50  
Old 30.07.2021, 15:43
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Apparently 67.835% of statistics are made up on the spot! …Apologies, but yours appears to meet that definition.

A free treatment that could prevent you from dying, being seriously ill or having to isolate. What’s not to like?
The numbers I gave are not statistics, but assumptions. It's crucial to know the difference. Otherwise you can be easily manipulated.


When you say the vaccine has no long term side effects, you make an assumption as you have no data to prove your point. After the mass testing is finished and the necessary time has passed, yes, you can come with the statistics. Hopefully based on data.
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  #51  
Old 30.07.2021, 16:05
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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In fact it was assumed that people in key roles were much probable not to take the vaccine.
Interesting aspect.

Do you know how they came to this conclusion?

Maybe specialists are more confident of finding a new job quickly and are thus harder to blackmail?

Or maybe because more educated people are more likely to not walk with the crowd?
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  #52  
Old 30.07.2021, 16:08
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Resorting to ad hominems or character judgements is tacit confirmation of having lost the argument.
You'd argue your case rationally instead if you thought you (still) have a leg to stand on.
The peculiar thing is that there is actually a very worthwhile discussion to be had here. But nobody in the anti-choice camp wants to take up the gauntlet.
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  #53  
Old 30.07.2021, 16:23
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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The numbers I gave are not statistics, but assumptions. It's crucial to know the difference. Otherwise you can be easily manipulated.


When you say the vaccine has no long term side effects, you make an assumption as you have no data to prove your point. After the mass testing is finished and the necessary time has passed, yes, you can come with the statistics. Hopefully based on data.
I have no data? How about the 10s of millions of those that have been injected, most of which twice.

You have no data on long term side effects. None.

Oh, and I didn’t actually say that. Don’t put words into my mouth. Thank you.

Mods, these guys would be banned on facebook, twitter, etc. for misleading posts. How about some leadership here.
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  #54  
Old 30.07.2021, 16:37
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Interesting aspect.

Do you know how they came to this conclusion?

Maybe specialists are more confident of finding a new job quickly and are thus harder to blackmail?

Or maybe because more educated people are more likely to not walk with the crowd?
You summed it up pretty good. No one said it, but resistance to blackmail is probably the main cause.

They are many categories of key people, specialist being one of them. Additionally there are people with financial impact or a key role in the organization. What they have in common: to get in such a position they had to use their head and not go with the mainstream opinion. Maybe even go against the main stream opinion. And this becomes a habit.

I guess these kind of people tend to be financially successful, too, so their life might not depend on the current job. Much easier to say no way.

Education, I don't know. Being educated doesn't exclude using your head. But it doesn't imply it either.
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Old 30.07.2021, 16:48
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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I have no data? How about the 10s of millions of those that have been injected, most of which twice.

You have no data on long term side effects. None.

Oh, and I didn’t actually say that. Don’t put words into my mouth. Thank you.
If I were you, I would calm down. No one has data on the long term side effects, and no one includes you. The history still has to run its course.


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Mods, these guys would be banned on facebook, twitter, etc. for misleading posts. How about some leadership here.
I can feel your frustration. Some dares to disagree using logic. No mainstream opinion either. Just make him shut up. If he doesn't get banned, just find a safe space and make use of it. It seems you know quite a few.
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  #56  
Old 30.07.2021, 16:49
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Why do you think it is only slightly? Also, there are so many tiers in society today - this is just an additional one for a very good cause. Why do you think it will be just a two tiered society?

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20...nsmission.aspx
From the Washington Post today:

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vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant
https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-...sk-guidance%2f

Susie-Q "FIRE THEM!"
Bowlie "BAN THEM!"

The strong authoritarian tendencies many have that this pandemic has laid bare is truly depressing.
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Old 30.07.2021, 16:56
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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From the Washington Post today:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-...sk-guidance%2f

Susie-Q "FIRE THEM!"
Bowlie "BAN THEM!"

The strong authoritarian tendencies many have that this pandemic has laid bare is truly depressing.
Ultimately it's a disease that's going to be endemic and caught by most of us. People should get the vaccine to ensure they aren't immunologically naive and then stop flapping their arms.
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Old 30.07.2021, 20:47
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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My best friend at work has lupus and is on immunosuppressants, I worry for her constantly. Also, while it does protect well from transmission, I am nervous about an unvaccinated person coming into work with a full viral load that will increase the chances of vaccinated people getting sick. I do have asthma and it is always in the back of my mind that maybe I will be one of those people who could get really sick despite my vaccination.
And what do you want to do about it?

I suppose you could dialogue and try to convince people.

Or you could have a tantrum and throw your groans around, and wallow in your ultra-authoritarian fantasies that cannot be questioned lest they collapse. That's a much better way obviously.

Or put it this way, suppose your friend does get infected, and maybe even dies, and the person who infected them could have been convinced had you adopted a more reconciliatory tone than, "you deserve to be fired and lose your job and home because of my asthma".

Would you then still be able to look at yourself in the mirror, and say, yes, I still think I did the right thing?

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Old 30.07.2021, 22:33
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

What? People are still at risk, even with vaccinations. Nothing to joke about in my opinion.

I am in a risk group and apparently still am, due to the new variants. Great…. So yes, I am still very cautious.

I hope to retire early next year and want to do that in good health.
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Old 31.07.2021, 09:28
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Or put it this way, suppose your friend does get infected, and maybe even dies, and the person who infected them could have been convinced had you adopted a more reconciliatory tone than, "you deserve to be fired and lose your job and home because of my asthma".
That's not her responsibility as well you know.

Our role is to look after ourselves and those around us as best we can. Caring for other people is not 'authoritarian'. If someone in the workplace chooses another path, it's up to their employer to reason with them, nobody else. If they persist with their chosen path, any consequences are firmly on their head, nobody elses.

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I am in a risk group and apparently still am, due to the new variants. Great…. So yes, I am still very cautious.
Recently had a good chat with a primary care professor who's been working on a covid research committee for over a year. We were talking about something else altogether, but I grabbed my chance to run a couple of concerns I have about my OH's workplace by her.

OH is immunosuppressed. He's not ill in any way, but has diagnosed chronic vitamin D deficiency, which our doctor is treating. When we met, we worked on the 8th floor and he climbed the stairs to the office 4 times a day no problem. His current office is on a much higher floor and reliant on air conditioning. The prof was absolutely clear that whilst both factors are an issue, the lift was the 'red zone' in this instance. I'm dreading his WFH coming to an end.
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