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Old 31.07.2021, 12:04
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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That's not her responsibility as well you know.

Our role is to look after ourselves and those around us as best we can. Caring for other people is not 'authoritarian'. If someone in the workplace chooses another path, it's up to their employer to reason with them, nobody else. If they persist with their chosen path, any consequences are firmly on their head, nobody elses.
I agree with this, mostly. But the person who i was replying to was not saying this. She was saying, everybody who disagrees needs to be fired. Being fired may mean losing your mortgage, your house, lost of terrible things. I think that is an awful thing to wish for tens of thousands of people.

And I stand by my statement that it is an ultra-authoritarian way to approach a problem.

Not to mention damage to the economy and ability for operations to function. For example many hospitals would be short of qualified staff if they laid off all unvaccinated employees. Is that a wise course to take in the middle of a pandemic? Remember this may include staff from EE countries who are actually vaccinated but whose vaccines are not recognized for purely political reasons.

I think it was a terribly ignorant and selfish thing to say.

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Recently had a good chat with a primary care professor who's been working on a covid research committee for over a year. We were talking about something else altogether, but I grabbed my chance to run a couple of concerns I have about my OH's workplace by her.

OH is immunosuppressed. He's not ill in any way, but has diagnosed chronic vitamin D deficiency, which our doctor is treating. When we met, we worked on the 8th floor and he climbed the stairs to the office 4 times a day no problem. His current office is on a much higher floor and reliant on air conditioning. The prof was absolutely clear that whilst both factors are an issue, the lift was the 'red zone' in this instance. I'm dreading his WFH coming to an end.
I walk not six but eight floors every day. Because I believe it's good for my health. And maybe staying in good health also offers some protection against the worst of the effects of COVID. I'm not convinced the stairs are more hygienic than the lifts because in our building at least there are multiple door handles I need to touch, and also the stairs being quite narrow you get very close to people coming the other way. But that's besides the point. People at risk need special protection in their own area. But other people need protection too. It takes balance and give and take. Demanding one third of employees be laid off, including many with key and specific knowledge who cannot easily be replaced, becomes somebody on the sixth floor takes immunosuppressants does not sound like a balanced approach to me.
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  #62  
Old 31.07.2021, 12:47
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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I walk not six but eight floors every day. Because I believe it's good for my health. And maybe staying in good health also offers some protection against the worst of the effects of COVID. I'm not convinced the stairs are more hygienic than the lifts because in our building at least there are multiple door handles I need to touch, and also the stairs being quite narrow you get very close to people coming the other way. But that's besides the point. People at risk need special protection in their own area. But other people need protection too. It takes balance and give and take. Demanding one third of employees be laid off, including many with key and specific knowledge who cannot easily be replaced, becomes somebody on the sixth floor takes immunosuppressants does not sound like a balanced approach to me.
We worked on the eighth floor. Try that approach when your office is several floors higher, as it the case with my OH. He's fit and strong, but anything above the 10th floor is pushing it from a practical perspective.

I'm not calling for anyone to be sacked, however I would think it prudent to allow either vaccinated or unvaccinated staff to be back in the office. If they've successfully worked from home for 18mths, this is the dilemma facing employers now...which group do they want to bring back based upon the numbers and their duty of care legal obligations. It's a sticky one and not a decision I would like to be making.
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Old 31.07.2021, 12:54
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

My company have done the same but I was always home based and most of my work is outside Switzerland. I did pop into the office on Wednesday and was a bit shocked almost everyone was back except for the few I know who don’t want the vaccine. As the Swiss have a fascination of everyone packed into the office like sardines not sure what future there is for the unvaccinated.

I am all vaxed up but respect their decision and wheather we are vaxed or not the virus lives on, if they want to spend time in ICU that’s their option.
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  #64  
Old 31.07.2021, 12:55
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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We worked on the eighth floor. Try that approach when your office is several floors higher, as it the case with my OH. He's fit and strong, but anything above the 10th floor is pushing it from a practical perspective.

I'm not calling for anyone to be sacked, however I would think it prudent to allow either vaccinated or unvaccinated staff to be back in the office. If they've successfully worked from home for 18mths, this is the dilemma facing employers now...which group do they want to bring back based upon the numbers and their duty of care legal obligations. It's a sticky one and not a decision I would like to be making.
Anyway, sure, whatever.

But I was responding to another poster who said something completely different. She was saying in no unsure terms that everybody who doesn't act in the way she sees fit should be sacked. No ifs or buts. This is what I was taking issue with.

I'm surprised you're taking issue with me for pointing it out rather than with her for saying it in the first place.
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Old 31.07.2021, 13:34
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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I'm surprised you're taking issue with me for pointing it out rather than with her for saying it in the first place.
It was the way you were apportioning 'blame'.

Anyway, I can only wonder if this change of tack becomes more widespread. Hmmm...

'Swiss hospitals will reveal proportion of vaccinated personnel'
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society...ium=socialflow
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  #66  
Old 08.08.2021, 15:41
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

Can you be fired in Switzerland if you refuse the Covid-19 vaccine?

There has been a lot of talk lately about privileges that Swiss authorities could grant to those who have had their coronavirus shots. But what if you choose not to be vaccinated?
Central to the return of some degree of normality in Switzerland is the introduction of a Covid-19 certificate, which provides certain privileges for vaccinated people, along with those who have recovered from the virus.

READ MORE: What will Switzerland’s Covid-19 pass allow you to do?

While the government has frequently reiterated that the vaccine is and will remain voluntary, the introduction of the Covid certificate has meant that certain industries will require their customers and clients to show a valid certificate – which of course means that staff will also need to possess the certificate.

For instance, nightclubs will be allowed to reopen but will require a Covid certificate from June 26th – meaning of course that staff will also need said certificate, to ensure everyone is immune to the virus.

But what could happen if you don’t want to get the shot — can your employer fire you?

If you work for a private company, employers “can make a distinction between vaccinated and non-vaccinated employees, especially for those who pose a security risk through frequent contact with other people”, Daniella Lützelschwab, a representative of an employers’ association, said to Swiss tabloid Blick.

Lützelschwab added that a company could decide to transfer unvaccinated employees to another location, where they are not in contact with other workers.

However, if relocation is not possible, the employer “must give an employee a deadline within which they should get vaccinated”.

If he or she still refuses, the company can dismiss them, on the grounds that they don’t support the employer in implementing health protection measures in the workplace.

“That is why I consider advantages for people who have been vaccinated to be permissible”, ”said Nicole Vögeli Galli, lecturer at the Zurich University of Applied Sciences.

This also applies to people who have been working from home but will soon return to the workplace, as the Federal Council has dropped the requirement to work from home from June 26th.

Whether or not you will be able to go back to your office also depends on your vaccination status.

“If the vaccination is necessary in the context of health protection, non-vaccinated people are not allowed to return,” Vögeli Galli said.

https://www.thelocal.ch/20210225/can...id-19-vaccine/
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Old 08.08.2021, 15:49
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

Good!
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  #68  
Old 08.08.2021, 18:06
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Can you be fired in Switzerland if you refuse the Covid-19 vaccine?

https://www.thelocal.ch/20210225/can...id-19-vaccine/
This article is from February when it was believed that the vaccines were significantly effective at preventing infection and transmission. This is no longer the case as the number of breakthrough infections continues to rise so I don’t believe this reason to enforce vaccinations will be valid anymore. I’m still curious to see this tested in court, I expect the wait won’t be long!
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Old 20.08.2021, 13:36
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Swiss law faces stress test over employer Covid-19 vaccination mandates


As the Swiss government tries to boost its Covid-19 vaccine campaign amid rising coronavirus infections, questions are being raised about whether employers can legally require workers to get vaccinated. The answer is proving tricky.

This content was published on August 19, 2021 - 15:45 August 19, 2021 - 15:45
When Google announced a few weeks ago that it will require its employees to be vaccinated against Covid-19 to work on-site, Swiss labour rights groups perked up. What would this mean for the more than 4,000 employees at Google’s offices in Zurich?

The internet search giant said it will adapt its policyExternal link, initially introduced in the US, to local conditions in the countries where it has offices. But the announcement has sparked debate about whether such employer vaccine mandates are even allowed under Swiss law.

The answer is both yes and no, according to Lorena Steiner, a lawyer at Battegay and Dürr law firm in Basel.

“The Swiss Epidemics Act is restrained and also appears contradictory when it comes to mandatory vaccination that isn’t enforceable,” Steiner told SWI swissinfo.ch. “Individual rights such as personal freedoms and physical integrity are very important in Switzerland. Even the vaccination obligation according to the Epidemics Act doesn’t allow for coercion.”

The nuance, says Steiner, is that employers can require specific groups of workers to get vaccinated. Even then, no one can get vaccinated against their will. But which groups of workers and how companies can enforce a mandate have confounded many Swiss legal experts.

What does the law say?
Switzerland’s Labour Act and various ordinances related to the Covid-19 emergency oblige employers to take measures to protect the health of employees.

On top of this is the Code of ObligationsExternal link, which states that private employers are justified in mandating employees get vaccinated in certain circumstances based on the employer’s right to issue instructions to employees.

Under the Swiss Epidemics Act, revised in 2013, cantons also have the right to impose mandatory vaccination if it is in the interest of public health. But this can only be applied to certain groups of people. The example often given is healthcare workers, as they have regular contact with high-risk individuals. The law also gives the federal government power to mandate vaccination in consultation with cantons, but this has never been done.

The Epidemics Act also states clearly that no one can force another person to be vaccinated against their will.

So, where does this leave companies?
Swiss employers have an obligation to protect the health and safety of employees, but Steiner says wearing a safety helmet or even a hygiene mask is different than vaccination, which is a more “drastic measure” that can’t be undone. Although vaccination is considered the most effective measure against Covid-19, less invasive measures are possible to keep employees safe, such as regular testing.

While many companies in countries like the United States have issued vaccine mandates for entire workforces, this is out of the questionExternal link in Switzerland. An employer, whether public or private, could make a case for mandatory vaccination for all or some healthcare workers based on the legal clause regarding public health interests.

Both the French and Italian governments announced such a measure this summer, with French President Emmanuel Macron telling healthcare personnel that they would be out of a job if not vaccinated by September 15.

If employees refuse, employers are expected to look for another task inside the company for them to do or find another solution for the employee.

The next step is to issue a warning to the employee. “Firing someone because they won’t get vaccinated isn’t the right solution. This should be a last resort,” says Steiner.

In fields outside of healthcare, the situation gets more complicated, as some jobs are becoming increasingly difficult to do without vaccination. For example, any job that includes travel will likely require proof of vaccination. This may make it difficult for an employee to fulfill contractual duties.

The law is unclear on how far companies can go to enforce a mandate. This is especially the case as access to activities or venues becomes more dependent on proof of vaccination.

“The line between coercion and willingness is getting blurry,” as external pressure mounts, Steiner says.

More clarity could be on the way if the Swiss look at the European Court of Human RightsExternal link. It ruled that mandatory vaccination interferes with personal integrity but may be necessary to safeguard public health. It added that refusal of statutory vaccination could be considered a criminal offense but that wasn’t the same as physically forcing someone to get vaccinated.

There is strong pushback against measures that could be perceived as discriminatory against unvaccinated people. In November, Switzerland will vote on a popular initiative that challenges the government’s power to impose restrictions. Supporters claim the Covid-19 certificates issued to people who have been vaccinated, tested, or recovered from the coronavirus are discriminatory.

How are Swiss companies approaching this?
For now, most Swiss companies have followed the federal government’s lead, encouraging vaccination by lowering the barriers to do so instead of mandating it. The federal government has so far said it won’t make vaccination mandatory. Cantons haven’t announced mandatory vaccination for any workers, such as healthcare staff or teachers.

A spokesperson for Basel-based pharmaceutical company Novartis told SWI swissinfo.ch that they continue to recommend associates work from home. Only employees who are fully vaccinated, have fully recovered, or have an up-to-date negative Covid-19 test result, should come to their Basel campus.

But Novartis stops short of requiring proof of immunisation or negative test results to enter its offices. “We trust that employees in our offices will follow our rules if they choose to work at the site,” the company spokesperson told SWI swissinfo.ch.

Swiss multinationals may soon be outliers as more companies follow Google’s lead. Several large pharmaceutical companies have announced vaccine requirements for employees, including California-based Gilead Sciences, which announced it would require all employees and contractors to be fully vaccinated against Covid-19External link by October 1. Many banks, such as Goldman Sachs, have also announced similar policies or requiring employees to disclose their vaccination status.

In Switzerland, employees themselves are sometimes forcing institutions’ and companies’ hands. On Wednesday, the German-language newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung reportedExternal link that a professor at the University of Basel is refusing to offer in-person lectures if unvaccinated people are allowed in lecture halls, out of concern for himself and other students.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-l...dates/46880820
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Old 20.08.2021, 13:42
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

The Professor is breaking contractual obligations and could be fired.
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Old 20.08.2021, 15:45
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

If you don't choose to be vaccinated, fine, but then please continue to wear a good quality mask in the proper way whenever you share an indoor space with other people or are unable to maintain a 1.5 meter distance outdoors. And pay for your own damn tests if you want to go party.
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Old 20.08.2021, 15:55
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

I don't have a problem with people choosing to not be inoculated, or choosing to wait a while and check if they then feel more comfortable being inoculated. No problem with either group, as it pertains to the COVID injection.



I have a huge problem with the access barriers in place in Switzerland, that mean many of our most vulnerable don't even have the choice, and don't have access to testing either.
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Old 20.08.2021, 16:58
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Hi everyone,

My employer is considering mandatory Coronavirus vaccination for office entry. Is this legal in Switzerland though? I hear that in Switzerland it's illegal to ask for health data like vaccine status for office entry.
I do not know what is legal here or not.

But this whole Story of People not vaccinating themselves and expecting others to be around them, well... come on.

Not to mention A Story I just heard from a Parent that his Kids are not vaccinated to ANY Disease since Birth and when I asked - well, what do the other Parents in the Kita say about it he just said - well it is not their Business and so they have no idea about it.
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Old 20.08.2021, 17:46
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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If you don't choose to be vaccinated, fine, but then please continue to wear a good quality mask in the proper way whenever you share an indoor space with other people or are unable to maintain a 1.5 meter distance outdoors. And pay for your own damn tests if you want to go party.
Likewise, those who choose to live their lives in fear are free to isolate themselves as much as they want.
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  #75  
Old 20.08.2021, 18:00
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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I do not know what is legal here or not.

But this whole Story of People not vaccinating themselves and expecting others to be around them, well... come on.

Not to mention A Story I just heard from a Parent that his Kids are not vaccinated to ANY Disease since Birth and when I asked - well, what do the other Parents in the Kita say about it he just said - well it is not their Business and so they have no idea about it.

3 very different situations are being needlessly blended.


A reluctance to support vaccinations with multiple years of research and monitoring is not in any way the same as a reluctance to currently receive the COVID vaccination, nor the same as someone never wanting to receive the COVID vaccination, regardless of however many years passing and any evidence gathered.


It's reasonable for people to think through the COVID injection, and to decide it's currently not right for them, and to keep checking in future, to see if they feel more comfortable with it at some point.


Of course, it's also fine for people to want to receive it right now.

Last edited by CliiniMuus; 20.08.2021 at 19:44.
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Old 20.08.2021, 18:43
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Likewise, those who choose to live their lives in fear are free to isolate themselves as much as they want.
All my "fear" does is keep others safe and require a minor behaviour adjustment for everyone. Your narcissistic individualism will contribute to further deaths and more potent variants. I deserve to be safe at work more than covidiots deserve to be comfortable.
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Old 20.08.2021, 18:50
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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All my "fear" does is keep others safe and require a minor behaviour adjustment for everyone. Your narcissistic individualism will contribute to further deaths and more potent variants. I deserve to be safe at work more than covidiots deserve to be comfortable.

Whether you decide the receive the injection, or not, has no bearing on whether you're safe in work. Whether others decide to, or not, has no bearing on whether you're safe in work.


-It's entirely reasonable for someone to decide they want the injection.
-It's entirely reasonable for someone to decide they want to wait and see, with time, if they want to receive it, or not.


This black-and-white thinking (enemies and heroes) doesn't serve us well, and the name-calling is unnecessary surely.
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Old 20.08.2021, 18:56
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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All my "fear" does is keep others safe and require a minor behaviour adjustment for everyone. Your narcissistic individualism will contribute to further deaths and more potent variants. I deserve to be safe at work more than covidiots deserve to be comfortable.
By this logic could we also expect fat people to adjust their behaviour and lose some weight? They also pose a health risk and may put an unnecessary strain on the health system.
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Old 20.08.2021, 19:02
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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By this logic could we also expect fat people to adjust their behaviour and lose some weight? They also pose a health risk and may put an unnecessary strain on the health system.
Good idea. Same should apply to smokers…
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Old 20.08.2021, 19:03
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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I do not know what is legal here or not.

But this whole Story of People not vaccinating themselves and expecting others to be around them, well... come on.

Not to mention A Story I just heard from a Parent that his Kids are not vaccinated to ANY Disease since Birth and when I asked - well, what do the other Parents in the Kita say about it he just said - well it is not their Business and so they have no idea about it.
Well cant speak for the “Whole Story” about non vaxxd but I have never “expected others” to be vaccinated around me.
I havent ever tried to persuade others either way as its not my business.

I am a strong proponent for elderly / risk people getting vaccinated.

I also don’t understand why parents don’t give infants the jabs that are once in a lifetime.
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