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  #101  
Old 21.08.2021, 21:31
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Ok that is true in this case given the length of the trial. I was guilty of skimming your last post somewhat.

From my perspective the risk of an effect only being noticed much later for this particular treatment is near zero. It's a one (well two) off treatment of an inherently unstable molecule that can't reside in the body.
Fair enough on not actually having read my post but how on earth can you assert risk of an effect downstream is near zero from 'your perspective' - it's an absurd statement to make, it effectively drawing conclusions out of ignorance

Why bother with science in the first place, stick to your perspective then
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  #102  
Old 23.08.2021, 11:31
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Unvaccinated people now make up the majority of hospitalised and deadly cases of Covid.
That maybe so, however probably the biggest lie of this pandemic has been that as long as everyone behaves in the right way and works together that it can be brought to an end. This virus cannot be controlled, though vaccination, through lockdowns, through masks. Covid will eventually become endemic and will do so in its own time.

A friend of mine who is double vaccinated tested positive at the end of last week, all indication point to her having caught it from her husband, who is also double vaccinated.
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  #103  
Old 23.08.2021, 11:45
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Fair enough on not actually having read my post but how on earth can you assert risk of an effect downstream is near zero from 'your perspective' - it's an absurd statement to make, it effectively drawing conclusions out of ignorance

Why bother with science in the first place, stick to your perspective then
Because the molecule has been absent from the body for a long period prior to any "long term side effect" occurring. That's a scientific fact.

I'm not saying that is definitively the case that a long term side effect couldn't happen. Nobody can say that.

Another fact is that mRNA have been tested in a medical setting for years now. And no significant toxicity observed from the type of low doses seen in the covid vaccine.

I'm not an expert on mRNA toxicity, but I have worked on this technology before. Moderna in 2017-2019, so I'm not completely ignorant.
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  #104  
Old 23.08.2021, 13:36
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Because the molecule has been absent from the body for a long period prior to any "long term side effect" occurring. That's a scientific fact.

I'm not saying that is definitively the case that a long term side effect couldn't happen. Nobody can say that.

Another fact is that mRNA have been tested in a medical setting for years now. And no significant toxicity observed from the type of low doses seen in the covid vaccine.

I'm not an expert on mRNA toxicity, but I have worked on this technology before. Moderna in 2017-2019, so I'm not completely ignorant.
Not completely perhaps but enough to not understand how long-term side effects of vaccinations or therapeutics much less pharmacovigilance works. Contrary to what you may believe, it does not end with the elimination of a molecule from the system assuming anyone could call it a 'fact' that it is entirely eliminated within, say 2 months (No one can guarantee this).

Instead, long-term side effects can stem from the secondary and cascading effects of the spike proteins mRNA vaccines are designed to form in the body. This is not limited to crossing the BBB, autoimmune complications or inducing irregular cell & blood vessel interactions as it enters the circulatory system to potentially have an impact anywhere in the body.

So no it is neither a fact nor is it a certainty that long-term side effects from mRNA vaccines pose zero risk as you absurdly claimed. There is simply no evidence to conclude anything atm
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  #105  
Old 25.08.2021, 01:11
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Interestingly enough, vaccinating the elderly or immunodeficient is often not the most effective strategy for preventing the diseases covered by the vaccines. The problem is that the immune systems of the elderly are much weaker than those of younger people, meaning that they mount a weaker response to an immune challenge in the form of a vaccine or a disease. Consequently, it is often more effective to vaccinate around such people to prevent their exposure to the diseases. Doctors, nurses, staff at nursing homes, children, grandchildren, grocery delivery people, etc. can all e.g. get the flu jab to do their part to protect the vulnerable. It is this community aspect which makes public health measures special and different from health measures.

Interestingly enough you have managed to be as vague as possible whilst inferring the knowledge of the most effective strategy

“Is not often the most effective strategy” ???

“it is often more effective to vaccinate around such people”?

“ Doctors, nurses, staff at nursing homes, children, grandchildren, grocery delivery people can all get the flu jab to protect the vulnerable” ??

“ this makes public health measures special and different from health measures”




If this is just your opinion then say so….it is your speculative conjecture..no problem.
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  #106  
Old 25.08.2021, 12:22
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

Not really considered an office, but SWISS are the first ones introducing mandatory vaccination for staff.
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  #107  
Old 25.08.2021, 12:55
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Not really considered an office, but SWISS are the first ones introducing mandatory vaccination for staff.

“Swiss Air … The company sees itself legally protected by the clauses in the collective labor agreements for the cockpit and cabin personnel. “These provide for such a measure under these circumstances”, explains a media spokesman”

Well I am sure they have done the sums and will simply terminate contracts which is a disgrace. The claims for wrongful dismissal will be swept under the carpet with derisory 6 months wage payout.

I wonder how many “revenge terminations” there will be.

Shocking
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  #108  
Old 25.08.2021, 13:02
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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“Swiss Air … The company sees itself legally protected by the clauses in the collective labor agreements for the cockpit and cabin personnel. “These provide for such a measure under these circumstances”, explains a media spokesman”

Well I am sure they have done the sums and will simply terminate contracts which is a disgrace. The claims for wrongful dismissal will be swept under the carpet with derisory 6 months wage payout.

I wonder how many “revenge terminations” there will be.

Shocking
I find it even more shocking that a media spokesman still speaks about Swiss Air
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  #109  
Old 25.08.2021, 13:05
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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I find it even more shocking that a media spokesman still speaks about Swiss Air
That was me… 😳
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  #110  
Old 25.08.2021, 13:11
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Not really considered an office, but SWISS are the first ones introducing mandatory vaccination for staff.
Interesting news, but....

- covid19 reduced air travel
- Swiss received an emergency loan for the federal council last year to survive the pandemic without layoffs.
- Anyway, air travel has not rebounded and I guess there's still a lot of people in kurzarbeit/chômage technique. This has a cost.
- There's pressure to reduce employee counts but a large company such as Swiss needs to collaborate with the unemployment office on a plan for the hundreds of people to be laid off. This also has a cost.
- Also, layoffs after getting help from federal council is not exactly popular among the local population.
- Enter the mandatory vaccine, a lot of people will not comply and might quit.

Not sure if layoff/resignations due to the vaccine make easier to reduce idle employee count. Anyway, controversy served.
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  #111  
Old 25.08.2021, 16:21
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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That was me… ��
Swiss Air ceased operations in 2002.

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Not sure if layoff/resignations due to the vaccine make easier to reduce idle employee count. Anyway, controversy served.
A friend who is Swiss cabin crew, told me in February about proposed redundancies. In May, 780 redundancies were formally announced in the media. Thankfully, in June, this was modified to 550. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-a...ected/46706446

It's standard for long haul crew to be vaccinated for yellow fever unless medically exempt. https://www.universalweather.com/blo...rcraft-travel/

I've worked with many former cabin crew over the years, most just having a little 'time out' before returning to flying. With all the long haulers (thinking particularly of friends and former colleagues who returned to flying with Qatar and Etihad), one of their first steps was getting up to date with their vaccinations.

The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and WHO were pushing for airline crew to be prioritised for covid-19 vaccinations back in March https://www.flightglobal.com/strateg...143070.article

All in all, the airline industry needs to get back on it's feet, same as it did after 9/11, and if vaccinations are the most direct way to facilitate this, that's what they'll do and I'd be very surprised if many crew take exception to this. Survival of the industry comes first. Only yesterday, I read a post from one of my favourite holiday resorts who proudly announced that all their staff are now 100% vaccinated. If an island resort in Fiji can do it, a European airline definitely can.
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  #112  
Old 25.08.2021, 16:54
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Swiss Air ceased operations in 2002.


A friend who is Swiss cabin crew, told me in February about proposed redundancies. In May, 780 redundancies were formally announced in the media. Thankfully, in June, this was modified to 550. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-a...ected/46706446

It's standard for long haul crew to be vaccinated for yellow fever unless medically exempt. https://www.universalweather.com/blo...rcraft-travel/

I've worked with many former cabin crew over the years, most just having a little 'time out' before returning to flying. With all the long haulers (thinking particularly of friends and former colleagues who returned to flying with Qatar and Etihad), one of their first steps was getting up to date with their vaccinations.

The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and WHO were pushing for airline crew to be prioritised for covid-19 vaccinations back in March https://www.flightglobal.com/strateg...143070.article

All in all, the airline industry needs to get back on it's feet, same as it did after 9/11, and if vaccinations are the most direct way to facilitate this, that's what they'll do and I'd be very surprised if many crew take exception to this. Survival of the industry comes first. Only yesterday, I read a post from one of my favourite holiday resorts who proudly announced that all their staff are now 100% vaccinated. If an island resort in Fiji can do it, a European airline definitely can.
I know some Swiss cabin crew who are mostly taking the generous offer to retire.
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  #113  
Old 26.08.2021, 14:31
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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"Well I am sure they have done the sums and will simply terminate contracts which is a disgrace. The claims for wrongful dismissal will be swept under the carpet with derisory 6 months wage payout.

I wonder how many “revenge terminations” there will be.

Shocking


Of course Swiss would be permitted to terminate the contracts. If the destinations which are being flown to require pilots and cabin crew to be vaccinated, unvaccinated pilots and cabin crew can simply not be deployed, hence they cannot work and their contracts can be terminated. The more interesting question is whether the contracts could be terminated with immediate effect or only with the ordinary termination period. Assuming that most contracts will likely have a one month termination period, the question is in any way moot, since then it is - for the employer - less hassle to simply give a one month notice. With this any claim for wrongful dismissal is out of the window.

For those wondering how the clause in the collective bargaining contract for cabin crew reads:
"Zur Verhütung von Erkrankungen kann die SWISS zu ihren Lasten die Vornahme von Schutzimpfungen und andere prophylaktische Massnahmen verlangen. Ausnahmsweise kann das CCM Impfungen auch ausserhalb der SWISS vornehmen lassen."

For pilots:
"Zur Verhütung von Erkrankungen kann die SWISS verlangen, dass Schutzimpfungen und andere prophylaktische Massnahmen vorgenommen werden. Daraus entstehende Kosten gehen zulasten der SWISS."
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Liability for any statements hereinabove excluded! - Need a Swiss lawyer PM me.
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  #114  
Old 26.08.2021, 16:23
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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“Swiss Air … The company sees itself legally protected by the clauses in the collective labor agreements for the cockpit and cabin personnel. “These provide for such a measure under these circumstances”, explains a media spokesman”

Well I am sure they have done the sums and will simply terminate contracts which is a disgrace. The claims for wrongful dismissal will be swept under the carpet with derisory 6 months wage payout.

I wonder how many “revenge terminations” there will be.

Shocking
But there was already mandatory vaccination required for Swiss cabin crew for certain destinations there are other diseases than coronavirus.

It is not new, anybody against vaccination in principle or for health reasons would anyway not be in the cabin crew.
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  #115  
Old 03.09.2021, 14:11
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

Read somewhere that UBS would allow permanent WFH for unvaccinated people
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  #116  
Old 03.09.2021, 16:53
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Read somewhere that UBS would allow permanent WFH for unvaccinated people
As someone who works there, there's been no comms of that nature whatsoever internally and no mention of having to be vaxed (or proof needed) to go in either so sounds like pure speculation. Plenty of people are back in the office on a voluntary basis and I tend to go in one or two days a week.
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  #117  
Old 03.09.2021, 16:57
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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As someone who works there, there's been no comms of that nature whatsoever internally and no mention of having to be vaxed (or proof needed) to go in either so sounds like pure speculation. Plenty of people are back in the office on a voluntary basis and I tend to go in one or two days a week.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...work-from-home

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  #118  
Old 03.09.2021, 20:43
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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Interestingly enough you have managed to be as vague as possible whilst inferring the knowledge of the most effective strategy

“Is not often the most effective strategy” ???

“it is often more effective to vaccinate around such people”?

“ Doctors, nurses, staff at nursing homes, children, grandchildren, grocery delivery people can all get the flu jab to protect the vulnerable” ??

“ this makes public health measures special and different from health measures”

If this is just your opinion then say so….it is your speculative conjecture..no problem.
It's not my speculative opinion. It's factual information based on a large number of clinical studies and pharmacovigilance data. It is pretty much common knowledge for flu vaccinations, so much so that it is part of the curriculum for health care management (e.g. students who go on to be in charge of nursing homes). What isn't so clear is how directly this will extrapolate to COVID, because the data are obviously not in place and the data scientists are busy working on more urgent issues. Hence speaking in best-understanding generalizations like a responsible scientist, and not over-selling the wisdom as black-and-white.

FYI: Absolutely everything about science is probabilistic when you get down to the details. Nothing about science is as black-and-white as the public wants it to be.
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  #119  
Old 04.09.2021, 04:41
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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It's not my speculative opinion. It's factual information based on a large number of clinical studies and pharmacovigilance data. It is pretty much common knowledge for flu vaccinations, so much so that it is part of the curriculum for health care management (e.g. students who go on to be in charge of nursing homes). What isn't so clear is how directly this will extrapolate to COVID, because the data are obviously not in place and the data scientists are busy working on more urgent issues. Hence speaking in best-understanding generalizations like a responsible scientist, and not over-selling the wisdom as black-and-white.

FYI: Absolutely everything about science is probabilistic when you get down to the details. Nothing about science is as black-and-white as the public wants it to be.
Factual information is not so when
-Using the word “often” after a “large” number of clinical studies.
-Using the phrase “pretty much common knowledge”

I did like the “ Hence speaking in best-understanding generalizations ”

I enjoy reading your posts 👍👍
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  #120  
Old 11.09.2021, 13:30
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Re: Vaccination required for office entry?

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EXPLAINED: What will Switzerland’s expanded Covid certificate look like?

Your employer will be allowed to ask whether or not you have a Covid certificate, however they cannot require you to have a Covid certificate in most cases.

The question is allowed to be asked in order to decide whether certain steps need to be taken in the workplace to protect people from further infection, such as creating distance between people or installing barricades.

Persons without Covid certificates could also be allowed to work from home.

In rare cases where no steps can be taken to prevent employees without Covid certificates from coming into contact with others, then termination may be possible.

Employers must consult with their employees about the Covid certificate requirement.

Each canton will be able to decide whether Covid certificates will apply at universities.
https://www.thelocal.ch/20210908/exp...ate-look-like/
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