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Old 13.08.2021, 13:01
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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His profile says Israel.

I didn't find it on top of this list (random first pick) but three places above Switzerland.
Ye well, not sure Lists and Ranks value really this Sector.

We have lots of problems and by the way I take nothing personally when someone criticizes my Country, but well, Tech in Israel is like Cheese or Mountains in Switzerland, dont think we need Lists for that.

But seriously, the OECD is publishing from time to time the amount of Money invested in each Kid the System, Teachers Salaries, number of sq. m per Student and many more KPI, which in all, sadly, Israel lags behind many many Countries.

Taking all these into considerations, the fact that Israel is more or less same population like CH, it is kind of a miracle that so many daily used products and so much innovation is being done there, and actually this Year has been the highest I think from Investments perspective of EU & US in Companies there.

If may add with a smile, and that is not me saying that, rather Foreigners living there, is mostly achieved via the wish and need on a daily basis to re think everything, question the old Rules / inventions and trying to invent the Wheel every day, rather than be happy with the current one. On the way we fight a lot, disagree in our loud Language but always Friends again the next day.
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  #62  
Old 13.08.2021, 13:17
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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......If may add with a smile, and that is not me saying that, rather Foreigners living there, is mostly achieved via the wish and need on a daily basis to re think everything, question the old Rules / inventions and trying to invent the Wheel every day, rather than be happy with the current one. On the way we fight a lot, disagree in our loud Language but always Friends again the next day.
That's an interesting statement about Israel. I would bet that most foreigners to Israel all over the world think differently.
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  #63  
Old 13.08.2021, 13:21
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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If may add with a smile, and that is not me saying that, rather Foreigners living there, is mostly achieved via the wish and need on a daily basis to re think everything, question the old Rules / inventions and trying to invent the Wheel every day, rather than be happy with the current one. On the way we fight a lot, disagree in our loud Language but always Friends again the next day.
Would you say that this may be a positive side-effect from the Jewish culture of questioning everything and seldom simply answering a question, but instead countering with follow-up questions and requests for clarification? At least that is my experience. Sometimes it is enjoyable, especially if you are a spectator to two truly wise people having one of those deeply philosophical discussions where they even quote their sources while speaking, and adds value. Other times, I really just want a straight answer NOW, without going round the houses five times.

It is also important to understand what is an appropriate question and what isn't, e.g. because the general feeling is that the reason is obvious or that you should do your own research before trying to look edgy by questioning things that have a very clear reason for being the way they are. I remember some teachers telling us that "whoever told you that there are no stupid questions was lying to you".
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Old 13.08.2021, 13:25
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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I remember some teachers telling us that "whoever told you that there are no stupid questions was lying to you".
Another myth busted
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Old 13.08.2021, 13:42
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

Try living in Lugano..... No Tedesco!
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  #66  
Old 13.08.2021, 13:59
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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An ex-GF of my did the bookstore apprenticeship and later worked for Orell Füssli. One of the great perks was being able to buy (and even order) books at a considerable reduction - which I frequently got to benefit from as well. There must be something that job that attracts me apparently, as my present OH also did the same apprenticeship but never got to work in a bookstore. She went to work for a publisher instead (which shows how broad the training is).

And now that I think of it my very first ever GF in Switzerland was doing her bookstore apprenticship when we met. So quite definitely a pattern.
Sounds like my kind of gal too (read my signature).
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  #67  
Old 13.08.2021, 15:00
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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That's an interesting statement about Israel. I would bet that most foreigners to Israel all over the world think differently.
Did you mean visitors? He meant foreigners who live in Israel. There is a big difference.

I also think that asking a dumb question in a class doesn't compare with a newcomer who questions stuff around in order to understand it and adjust. It is the commentary that grates, I know, but commentaries grate in a classroom, too.

Where I am from learning is a dialectic process, people only ask questions to those they consider more knowledgeable. Arguing is saved for those we can learn from. It is a compliment.

I think I did the "Where I am from" but whatevs. This is not a classroom.
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  #68  
Old 13.08.2021, 19:13
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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Taking all these into considerations, the fact that Israel is more or less same population like CH, it is kind of a miracle that so many daily used products and so much innovation is being done there, and actually this Year has been the highest I think from Investments perspective of EU & US in Companies there.

If may add with a smile, and that is not me saying that, rather Foreigners living there, is mostly achieved via the wish and need on a daily basis to re think everything, question the old Rules / inventions and trying to invent the Wheel every day, rather than be happy with the current one. On the way we fight a lot, disagree in our loud Language but always Friends again the next day.
I would imagine the $3.8bn from the US last year alone helps a bit, although that's of course earmarked for the military. Shame really, if only some of that dosh could be channelled to question the old rules. No need to re-invent the wheel, I think, maybe just find a way to not only disagree, but reach agreement too, so that friendships don't have to be renewed every day. The Palestinians would be happier, which in turn might lead to the possibility of a reduction of the military budget.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/57170576
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Old 13.08.2021, 19:26
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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I also think that asking a dumb question in a class doesn't compare with a newcomer who questions stuff around in order to understand it and adjust. It is the commentary that grates, I know, but commentaries grate in a classroom, too.
"where I'm from" comes in two flavors, with and without value judgement. I don't remember seeing you do the former. It's not the comment, it's the value judgement and unfounded claim of superiority that grates.
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Old 13.08.2021, 20:11
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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"where I'm from" comes in two flavors, with and without value judgement. I don't remember seeing you do the former. It's not the comment, it's the value judgement and unfounded claim of superiority that grates.
There is a lot of things that work really well back home and don't as well, it is the same everywhere. Assessing the edu system's quality is a huge thing in every country since it eats so much of a public budget. But whether it's good is only obvious cca 30 years after any reforms. Testing well is not the perfect criteria, nor is random small talk with colleagues or how happy kids are with homework. Everyone will add a bit of a judgment, innit. I personally think that if a grown up knows how to think for himself, the edu system (family, circumstances, etc.) must have done something right. Up until that time it's a work in progress, a mix of inspirations and ideals. It is nice if a part of that sticks..Sharing olinions, inslirations and ideals is lovely.

Superiority is such a subjective bs. A complex of sorts? Dunno.
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Old 15.08.2021, 14:18
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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sorry about that

All Swissgerman speakers speak German. So do the Romantsch. As they're taught in German at school. (The Romantsch probably in both).
The people in the French and the Italian part of course are taught in that mother-tongue - most of them still learn a second language at school though.

Did I dig myself out of that one?
Not that I wish to question your seniority in Switzerland, but are you sure?

I already got to meet several People whom refused / could not speak German with me or other people I was with. It happened in Kanton Schweyz and Luzern.

Last time was yesterday, my Little Girl had a problem with the Earing Hole so we were recommended to go to a a place where they seemed they know what they are doing very well, but both (Husband and Wife) Owners kept speaking to me and my Girl Swiss German, so we did not understand actually everything.
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Old 15.08.2021, 14:20
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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Not that I wish to question your seniority in Switzerland, but are you sure?

I already got to meet several People whom refused / could not speak German with me or other people I was with. It happened in Kanton Schweyz and Luzern.

Last time was yesterday, my Little Girl had a problem with the Earing Hole so we were recommended to go to a a place where they seemed they know what they are doing very well, but both (Husband and Wife) Owners kept speaking to me and my Girl Swiss German, so we did not understand actually everything.
Although educated in German, some refuse to speak Hoch Deutsch simply because they speak it poorly after so many years of not practising it.
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  #73  
Old 15.08.2021, 14:23
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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What is GCSE or A levels ? Seems like random words to me
AFAIK, GCSE is the European General Certificate of Secondary Education, lower than the IB which is done in the higher Classes. I studied in Madrid International School for a few Years and I made there my GCSE.
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Old 15.08.2021, 14:24
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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Although educated in German, some refuse to speak Hoch Deutsch simply because they speak it poorly after so many years of not practising it.
Yep, I find it not so nice, especially when u are a Customer, and you are getting the Swiss German instead of German. I mean, what do English only speakers do ?
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Old 15.08.2021, 14:32
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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Yep, I find it not so nice, especially when u are a Customer, and you are getting the Swiss German instead of German. I mean, what do English only speakers do ?
No, it's not nice but there are still many people here who feel far more comfortable speaking Swiss German than high German.

What do English speakers do?

1) See if the other person can speak English. Quite often they can.
2) Ask the person to speak High German
3) Learn enough Swiss German to understand it. You'll find it's a dialect of high German and you'll be able to connect the dots with time.
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Old 15.08.2021, 14:38
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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Owners kept speaking to me and my Girl Swiss German, so we did not understand actually everything.
Did you ask them to speak German?

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Yep, I find it not so nice, especially when u are a Customer, and you are getting the Swiss German instead of German. I mean, what do English only speakers do ?
Speak louder and louder - don't forget adding puce to your innate facial expression of disgust
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Old 15.08.2021, 14:38
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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I already got to meet several People whom refused / could not speak German with me or other people I was with. It happened in Kanton Schweyz and Luzern.

Last time was yesterday, my Little Girl had a problem with the Earing Hole so we were recommended to go to a a place where they seemed they know what they are doing very well, but both (Husband and Wife) Owners kept speaking to me and my Girl Swiss German, so we did not understand actually everything.
Sometimes, when you find yourself in a foreign country and you don't speak the local language, you'll have to find other ways to communicate. Using your hands sometimes helps, or drawing a picture . If all else fails, use a dictionary (printed or digital).

If I have a conversation with a foreigner, I usually ask, "sötti hochdütsch rede?"
They might say yes, or they might prefer to carry on in dialect, if they're eager to learn. Some German accents are harder to understand than others. I don't know what yours is like. I occasionally have trouble with Austrian accents, particularly if they speak very fast and it takes me a moment or two to get my head around it.

If your German is not very good or you have a very heavy accent, some people might speak in dialect because they think it doesn't make much difference. The thing you should be mindful of is that it's not necessarily a reflection of what they think of you or how much they hate foreigners. In Switzerland, much as anywhere else, if you treat people with respect, you tend to get it back. You might start a conversation with, " Ich spreche kein Schweizerdeutsch, weil ich erst vor kurzem in die Schweiz gekommen bin. Darf ich Sie bitten langsam und Hochdeutsch zu sprechen?"
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Old 15.08.2021, 14:42
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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No, it's not nice but there are still many people here who feel far more comfortable speaking Swiss German than high German.

What do English speakers do?

1) See if the other person can speak English. Quite often they can.
2) Ask the person to speak High German
3) Learn enough Swiss German to understand it. You'll find it's a dialect of high German and you'll be able to connect the dots with time.
Well, I guess each Person in every Country on the Planet feels best comfortable with his/her Mother Toungue.

But it is about kindness and openness to other People I guess.

I have several French Friends and they will also agree that many People in France will refuse speaking English to you.... for example.

On the other Hand, there are places where English Speakers / Tourists will go and the locals (who are usually less educated than the Swiss) will go above and beyond to understand, if by showing / "talking" with the Hands, ect.

It is all about ones´will to try.

Saying :

Je ne parle pas anglais
No hablo inglés
Ich spreche kein Hoch Deutsch

It is all easy. Hard part is to be nice and kind and try to understand the others.
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Old 15.08.2021, 14:47
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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Did you ask them to speak German?



Speak louder and louder - don't forget adding puce to your innate facial expression of disgust
Yes, actually as they were older Couple, I was extreme polite, speaking slow and in the nicest German I can.

When I came inside I greeted and asked if they speak English, I got "nein" so I said Kein problem, Hoch Deutsch ist super, with a Smile so I got "Ich kann Schweizer Deutsch" so I smiled what can I say....

You need to understand, I assume u know much better than me, that there different Dialects here, some are harder to understand than others.

Anakdote:

WEF - World Economic Forum - 2 Years ago I was sent from Work there, to be part of the Security Team - together with 2 German Colleagues of mine. The Germans understood nothing, as they had strong Dialect the People there, who came from different Kantons. So it was decided to switch to English also with the Germans, was cool for me.
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Old 15.08.2021, 14:49
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Re: Level of education in Switzerland

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Not that I wish to question your seniority in Switzerland, but are you sure?
But you are, aren't you? Besides, it's not a question of seniority, it's a question of how well Curley understands how Switzerland works. Trust me, she knows very well. And yes, I'm sure.

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...asked if they speak English, I got "nein" so I said Kein problem, Hoch Deutsch ist super...
It's interesting that your preferred language in Switzerland, given that you're obviously struggling with it (a problem with the ear hole? Presumably, you meant your daughter had an earache, or perhaps lost her hearing in one ear, or had an itchy ear or perhaps something else), is English. I'm assuming that your German is therefore even more basic. That could explain why the Swiss come across as unfeeling, cold and unhelpful to you. Persevere, learn and it'll all get easier for you.

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Hard part is to be nice and kind and try to understand the others.
I have to disagree with you there. I find it so dead easy it's become a way of life.

Btw, this is in the wrong thread. It's not a question of how well the Swiss are educated. It's a question of how well you're able to communicate (in any language, including body).

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