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  #61  
Old 09.08.2021, 15:19
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Today, everywhere, is so unfair to the elderly.
The way I see it are all the complaints in this thread peanuts compared to how unfair the elderly are to the young.

The generation of the currently elderly are the ones who lived with the worst carbon footprint in history and the foreseeable future. Not only did they run down the planet, but left behind social systems, retirement systems, education systems and society as a whole in a much worse state than what they got from their parents. And then complain about the young people and their cafe lattes.
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  #62  
Old 09.08.2021, 15:36
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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The way I see it are all the complaints in this thread peanuts compared to how unfair the elderly are to the young.

The generation of the currently elderly are the ones who lived with the worst carbon footprint in history and the foreseeable future. Not only did they run down the planet, but left behind social systems, retirement systems, education systems and society as a whole in a much worse state than what they got from their parents. And then complain about the young people and their cafe lattes.
What definition is being used for “currently elderly”? I don’t believe it is possible, productive, or fair to make generalizations about lifestyles, life choices, beliefs etc for any demographic as broad and diverse as “currently elderly” or “today’s youth”
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  #63  
Old 09.08.2021, 16:13
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Today, everywhere, is so unfair to the elderly.

If they don’t have internet, suppliers often add a franc or two for a paper invoice, yet it is our elderly, Swiss or foreign, who have the least money.

Now the billing system is changing, and all future invoices will have QR codes, so what happens to our elderly if they don’t know how to use a smart phone correctly?

Most appointments all over the world are online, and sometimes menus in restaurants are accessed via a QR code.

If they want to travel, it’s an uphill battle on their knees with all paper work done electronically.

We don’t see them, if they cannot run fast enough to keep up with all the technology required to live a simple daily life.
They become transparent, everywhere.

And yet they are a world of experience, of history, of stories.
It seems that nobody takes the time anymore to listen.
Everywhere, not just here.

Does anybody else have this impression or is it just an irrational thought?

In the voluntary places I help at, we see some elderly people asking for help with basic internet tasks. More often, we see people who are between 20 and 50 asking for such help, and help with typing, printing and scanning.



There are lots of younger people with smart phones, who only know how to send text messages and phone, or to look at something on social media. We support a lot of young people who don't know how to use a computer and basic IT applications, don't know how to open an email account, don't know how to look for jobs online, don't know how to make basic amendments (name, address, date) to an already drafted letter or CV.


I've seen much the same in offices - commonly a primitive ability to use computers, phones, printer, scanners, video-conferencing software and hardware in simple ways... It's not uncommon for this ignorance to be used as a status symbol by some office types, in my experience, the sorts who consider having home cleaners, tradesmen, a secretary, a chauffeur, and so on, as a sign of importance. Innumerable times, I've heard "I don't have time for such things", or "just fix it", pertaining to trivial hiccups.


I'm often consulted as the "IT person", much in the way how the 1 person in a group speaking a particular language would be put-upon for help. The same people come to me time and time again. My current thinking is there'll always be large swathes of people who are either disinterested, or unable to use, IT equipment and the internet beyond passively having it.



I'd say the danger is 2-fold. Being cut-off from large swathes of info and opportunities, owing to lack of hardware or software, or lack of access, and, sometimes, suffering financially as a result.


I'd say the other danger that affects everyone, and is really poorly understood, even by those in paid employment with a title alluding to someone being proficient in such things, is IT security. The speed of impact and entrepreneurship, leaves companies and governments chasing their tails trying to catch-up.



Scamming, phishing, spamming, determining if info can be relied upon, assessing when to reveal personal info and to whom, planning to protect data, knowing how to construct a password, identifying suspicious websites and phone numbers... all things we all desperately need regular training on.


Lastly (and tragically), kids and trusted advisors aren't always behaving in honourable ways towards those in need. I have 2 cases I'm helping with right now, that involve kids stealing from their elderly parent's bank account, and an episode in my private life, whereby the kids steal anything I buy for the parent (the latest example being 3 clocks with large faces, as the parent cannot see well, and often misses appointments and events tied to a specific time), and steal any food items that take their fancy from the parent's supplies (I often find the parent hasn't eaten anything all day as a result when I visit).
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  #64  
Old 09.08.2021, 16:13
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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The way I see it are all the complaints in this thread peanuts compared to how unfair the elderly are to the young.

The generation of the currently elderly are the ones who lived with the worst carbon footprint in history and the foreseeable future. Not only did they run down the planet, but left behind social systems, retirement systems, education systems and society as a whole in a much worse state than what they got from their parents. And then complain about the young people and their cafe lattes.
You sound like one of those people who hates the post war boomer generation (my generation as I was born at the tail end in '61). We get the blame for everything back in Britain, but at least we got off our backsides, worked for everything we've achieved and didn't rely on Bank of Mum and Dad. My late parents were the generation of young adults whose lives were affected by the depression, then severely disrupted by WW2, rebuilt Britain afterwards. They had very hard lives and I have the utmost respect for them.
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  #65  
Old 09.08.2021, 16:14
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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What definition is being used for “currently elderly”? I don’t believe it is possible, productive, or fair to make generalizations about lifestyles, life choices, beliefs etc for any demographic as broad and diverse as “currently elderly” or “today’s youth”
Anyone 65+ living in a western country. No, its not fair to blame an average guy for what the entire generation did. But its a fact that the last two post-WW2 generations lived in an extremely selfish way from using natural resources in the most careless way in human history all the way to handing over record debt to the younger generation. And I think its pretty fair to generalize as there will be very few exceptions in Western Europe. We had democracy and the voters repeatedly for decades elected the officials which gave them whatever they wanted, not the ones who proposed more sustainable ways. Its not a modern problem - this is a typical dilemma in politics. But it has never been as extreme as the past decades.

And compared to the complains that the young dont read books anymore or are responsible for the fact that the world is changing to the point that the internet is a thing now... do I think its fair to mention that the current older generation is still in total denial about how poorly they managed the planet.
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  #66  
Old 09.08.2021, 16:18
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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The way I see it are all the complaints in this thread peanuts compared to how unfair the elderly are to the young.

The generation of the currently elderly are the ones who lived with the worst carbon footprint in history and the foreseeable future. Not only did they run down the planet, but left behind social systems, retirement systems, education systems and society as a whole in a much worse state than what they got from their parents. And then complain about the young people and their cafe lattes.
Thanks boomer.
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  #67  
Old 09.08.2021, 16:31
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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People who read stuff that they imagine while reading (5x a week, 30min minimum) live cca 2 years longer than others. Non-fiction, papers, journals do not count. Can't remember at what conference I picked it up, if anyone needs a source. But one can feel the theory work - stories take your brain "for a walk".
Correlation doesn't prove causation.

For instance, those imaginative readers might be less technically inclined, thus predominantly female.
Or, because reading is a physically passive undertaking, it may be less attractive to young men.

And so on.
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  #68  
Old 09.08.2021, 16:31
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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You sound like one of those people who hates the post war boomer generation (my generation as I was born at the tail end in '61). We get the blame for everything back in Britain, but at least we got off our backsides, worked for everything we've achieved and didn't rely on Bank of Mum and Dad. My late parents were the generation of young adults whose lives were affected by the depression, then severely disrupted by WW2, rebuilt Britain afterwards. They had very hard lives and I have the utmost respect for them.
My parents were raised in a bomb shelter and their childhood in post-war Germany was far from fun. I have a lot of respect for their life stories, but that doesnt change the cold hard truth: their generation hands over a country with a massive national debt to the next generation. Their generation alone burned something along the line of one third of all oil on the planet. I could continue...
In the UK is the situation factually worse in every way. That "bank of mum and dad" comment is the exact slap in the face to any young worker in the UK who has to live through this: "In England in 2020, full-time employees could typically expect to spend around 7.8 times their workplace-based annual earnings on purchasing a home"

Your life was in many ways easier than it is for the young generation right now. They simply face by any standard a life less comfortable than yours... but for some reason does your generation like nothing more than to complain how lazy young people are and not exactly accept that the UK wasnt exactly managed well the last decades. Germany has so much debt because the post-war generation decided that they dont want to carry the burden of the retirement costs of the war generation on their own and essentially forwarded part of that to the future. Why the UK is by now substantially higher in debt than Germany is pretty hard to understand...
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  #69  
Old 09.08.2021, 16:47
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Correlation doesn't prove causation.

For instance, those imaginative readers might be less technically inclined, thus predominantly female.
Or, because reading is a physically passive undertaking, it may be less attractive to young men.

And so on.
I totally agree with looking for these different aspects. There are others - women might only be technically less inclined because they might need different, more visual (imaginative) ways to have things explained. If it happens, they become more tech interested. My theory. (It is far from original, modern math pedagogy agrees.)

The bookworms I know are mostly male. But then most friends of mine are male. The rest, are female bookworms. Like me.

If we take your theory, do elderly male manage technology better? Do female elderly need it explained in more imaginative/visual way? Coz I think your theory of physically passive->reader (female), physically active->technical (male) might be only age dependent. Also - I wouldn't use the word passive but patient Maybe that's when physically active (or less patient for reading) might show?
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Old 09.08.2021, 17:21
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Correlation doesn't prove causation.

For instance, those imaginative readers might be less technically inclined, thus predominantly female.
Or, because reading is a physically passive undertaking, it may be less attractive to young men.
You would think they would have taken something relatively straightforward as what you have described into account though.

Maybe people who read (fiction and poetry) read for long periods in the evening and when they are reading, they are not binge-eating in front of the TV so they live longer as they are not so obese with the health problems that brings?


There's an interesting correlation/causation example in the Freakonomics book where they discovered that people who had bookshelves full of books in their house had children who did better academically.

Of course, buying loads of books and stuffing bookshelves with these books isn't going to bring success to your children.
It's more that those parents who read a lot tended to be interested in lots of things, and do lots of things and this interest in the world is what rubbed off on their kids giving them the curiosity to want to learn and increase their knowledge.
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  #71  
Old 09.08.2021, 17:49
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

"Your life was in many ways easier than it is for the young generation right now".

I'd hardly say it was easy. After the war my dad firstly relocated back to Belfast with my mother and my eldest brother who was a baby, the only work he could get was in a tobacco factory (he'd worked in the Harland and Wolff shipyard prior to the war). Things weren't great so they went to Scotland to be near my mother's family and my dad then had to work as a coal miner - it was that or nothing. My dad took the job in the mines primarily because you were offered a prefab house, we lived in a prefab until 1966 when they were demolished. Boiling hot in summer and running with condensation in winter, for the first 3 years of my life I suffered with severe croup.

We had very little money and my dad grew all our own veg, they also had second hand furniture (how revolutionary eh?). People just made do, it wasn't really until the tail end of the 60s we started being better off - then my dad's mine closed, so my mum had to take a job cleaning a school. There were no welfare benefits in Britain like people get now, families in our position just had to get on with it.

I never completed my education until I was 35 when I got my degree from University of London, my parents couldn't afford for me to stay on at school beyond 16 so I got an office job and took vocational qualifications on day release and at night school. I had to move to London when I was 23 as my home town and the surrounding area was affected by the miners strike in 1984 and there was little or no work around. I also worked all the way through my 3 years at university, any local job I could get.

So forgive me for thinking that wasn't an easy life compared to what the youth of today have going for them. I see it with my husband's nephews and niece, mid to late 20s and still living at home saying they can't afford to move out, yet they have nice cars, the latest gadgets and pre lockdown were never done clubbing and going on holidays. Nice lifestyle if you can get it.
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  #72  
Old 09.08.2021, 21:01
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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I totally agree with looking for these different aspects. There are others - women might only be technically less inclined because they might need different, more visual (imaginative) ways to have things explained. If it happens, they become more tech interested. My theory. (It is far from original, modern math pedagogy agrees.)
That's not what happened in the Scandinavian countries, where societal and economic pressure to chose a certain profession or group of professions are pretty much the least worldwide. Governments, especially the Swedish, actually try to foster more equal choices but the individuals don't care.

It looks like, the differences in character traits between the sexes have increased in importance when it comes to chosing a profession. Makes sense if you think about it, if you have factor groups A and B, if you remove A what's left is B only. So, women flock to "people" professions while men keep flocking to "things/abstract stuff" professions. To simplify (and exaggerate a bit) kindergarten teachers and care personnel are female whereas pilots and technicians are male.

See the "gender equality paradox". For instance
(by the BBC) The 'paradox' of working in the world's most equal countries
'A gender equality paradox': Countries with more gender equality have fewer female STEM grads
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Old 09.08.2021, 21:26
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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You would think they would have taken something relatively straightforward as what you have described into account though.
One would think so, but what's obvious to you may be completely invisible (or just as obviously false) to someone else.
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Maybe people who read (fiction and poetry) read for long periods in the evening and when they are reading, they are not binge-eating in front of the TV so they live longer as they are not so obese with the health problems that brings?
I agree. My hypothesis for that would be that readers tend to be absorbed by the book, dive into the story, so they block out their stomach. And if they do notice its grumbling they have much better stuff to do than get up and fill it. TV however is mostly used to kill time, the watchers are bored so they need additional activities to busy themselves.
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It's more that those parents who read a lot tended to be interested in lots of things, and do lots of things and this interest in the world is what rubbed off on their kids giving them the curiosity to want to learn and increase their knowledge.
I'm of the firm belief that the apple falls close to the tree, that children very much mimick parental behaviour (as opposed to what they say), provided the parents take the time to keep leading by example, and do so consistently. Reading parents will encourage reading in their children, kind of "produce" them if you will, you reap what you sow. Of course not always, just like not all boys are interested in mechanics and engines. Nonetheless I think the strong tendency is there.

The better someone reads the more brain capacity's left to absorb the actual material, thought, and knowledge presented, or to dive into the story in case of fiction. It's difficult to "become" Hermione or Harry Potter if you still need the index finger to guide the eyes. Likewise (re)producing your knowledge, the better you've masterd the alphabet and writing the easier it is to put your thoughts in words.
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Old 09.08.2021, 21:45
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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So forgive me for thinking that wasn't an easy life compared to what the youth of today have going for them. I see it with my husband's nephews and niece, mid to late 20s and still living at home saying they can't afford to move out, yet they have nice cars, the latest gadgets and pre lockdown were never done clubbing and going on holidays. Nice lifestyle if you can get it.
I think that you may have selective vision if you are comparing your own childhood of poverty to affluent families of today. Poverty in London is apparently now at the similar level as it was back in 1900's, so why not also compare your childhood vs the MANY children and families in modern Britain who are currently living in need? https://www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/...n-echoes-past/

Also factor in the exposure to drug epidemics and violence (much of it gang related) that modern youths in poverty have to deal with in the many poor areas throughout the UK that are ridden with them. Did you have that in your day too?

Maybe when you factor in these kinds of things the "youth of today" may not look so rosy after all.
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Old 09.08.2021, 22:23
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...e-things-right

Communication across generations is the most effective channel for learning. I have a 19 and a 22 year old, if I want their respect for my opinions and attitudes I need to remain open to listen and consider theirs.
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Old 10.08.2021, 00:50
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Czech lit anthologies are horrendously dated (old lit and medieval) and hard to relate to for kids, plus kids are obligated to read cca 5x -8x more than here but the system insists for other benefits. Imagination, historical context, reading fluency, cognition.
I would have been happy to read more at school.

I always felt the teacher was holding us back from a normal reading rate, and giving us assignments that although based on the book we were reading, did not necessarily aid in understanding it but just supported a one-sided and sometimes even blinkered interpretation.

I think it's probably even worse today. Even less material covered and more time spent moralizing and politicizing everything to fit the mainstream narrative.
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Old 10.08.2021, 01:05
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Correlation doesn't prove causation.

For instance, those imaginative readers might be less technically inclined, thus predominantly female.
Or, because reading is a physically passive undertaking, it may be less attractive to young men.

And so on.
I'm in a literary society and I would say the gender ratio has a slant towards women, I'd guesstimate about 60% to 40%. but if you then zoom in to the highly active members, those who go out and organize events or talk at podium discussions or write stuff for the newsletter, the slant is much more male, maybe even as much as two thirds or more.

So maybe the genders have different ways of dealing with what they read.
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Old 10.08.2021, 01:15
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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My parents were raised in a bomb shelter and their childhood in post-war Germany was far from fun. I have a lot of respect for their life stories, but that doesnt change the cold hard truth: their generation hands over a country with a massive national debt to the next generation. Their generation alone burned something along the line of one third of all oil on the planet. I could continue...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but about the national debt in Germany I had the impression the people speaking up about this most are a bunch of old men in places like the FDP. Parties such as the Greens with a much younger and diverse demographic would be happily adding to the debt if they were in power. So it's maybe a bit of a mischaracterization to say the old people are handing over a debt to the young.

And about the oil? Well the generation before that burnt a lot of coal, and a couple of generations before that they chopped down most of the forests. But they also invented lots of cool things that we wouldn't want to live without. So every generation does some good and some bad.
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  #79  
Old 10.08.2021, 02:01
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

Thanks, Sky, for bringing up a trend that is becoming a global problem. Your points are valid and the elderly do feel overwhelmed with new technology and are frustrated that the skills they learned are no longer relevant.

My mother (85) has received her first ipad and she has come to love Facebook. She won't write on it but she reviews her newsfeed at least three times a day. Facebook has become a relevant social media channel for many elderly, as they pass their time looking at photos of what their loved ones are doing.

Messenger on FB is also easy to learn and an excellent way to send photos for those who don't have whatsapp. I also use the video chat function which she now understands after some practice.

However, my mother won't touch the internet or google because it's not as clear cut. Any glitches in FB scare her and she's afraid to do something that will cause harm to the computer. Tom1234's idea of volunteers helping the elderly is a good one and I hope organisations will implement a program where the elderly or those who are non-tech are motivated to learn and are personally assisted in aquiring computer skills.

My advice to anyone who has a parent or loved one that still doesn't have a mobile or ipad: please help them to get one. It opens a new world to them and makes them feel somewhat connected again.
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Old 10.08.2021, 07:39
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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The way I see it are all the complaints in this thread peanuts compared to how unfair the elderly are to the young.

The generation of the currently elderly are the ones who lived with the worst carbon footprint in history and the foreseeable future. Not only did they run down the planet, but left behind social systems, retirement systems, education systems and society as a whole in a much worse state than what they got from their parents. And then complain about the young people and their cafe lattes.
What a strangely odd and misinformed view!

My generation not only had no idea what a "carbon footprint" was - in 1973 with the first oil shock, we had to learn how much we were dependent on oil. We didn't even know what plastic was made from? We were never taught this, but learned it from the TV news!

We did not leave social systems in a worse state. There were basically no social systems in the 1940s to take over.

And who's complaining about young people and caffe lattes?? I'm not - though I prefer an American.

I don't think you have any understanding of how it was in post-war Europe...
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