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  #81  
Old 10.08.2021, 09:01
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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I would have been happy to read more at school.

I always felt the teacher was holding us back from a normal reading rate, and giving us assignments that although based on the book we were reading, did not necessarily aid in understanding it but just supported a one-sided and sometimes even blinkered interpretation.

I think it's probably even worse today. Even less material covered and more time spent moralizing and politicizing everything to fit the mainstream narrative.
Yes

Not in my case, I remember Animal Farm and One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich - really good discussions on Lenin and Stalin. Only as an adult did I discover Le Carre and wider views of the cold war.

No, I do not think it is worse today. I am happy to be labelled woke - it was definitely not mainstream 30 years ago and if you do not get too precious about it, being socially aware seems pretty OK to me. Just finished Dancing with the Tsars -hilarious.
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  #82  
Old 10.08.2021, 09:55
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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"Your life was in many ways easier than it is for the young generation right now".

I'd hardly say it was easy. After the war my dad firstly relocated back to Belfast with my mother and my eldest brother who was a baby, the only work he could get was in a tobacco factory (he'd worked in the Harland and Wolff shipyard prior to the war). Things weren't great so they went to Scotland to be near my mother's family and my dad then had to work as a coal miner - it was that or nothing. My dad took the job in the mines primarily because you were offered a prefab house, we lived in a prefab until 1966 when they were demolished. Boiling hot in summer and running with condensation in winter, for the first 3 years of my life I suffered with severe croup.

We had very little money and my dad grew all our own veg, they also had second hand furniture (how revolutionary eh?). People just made do, it wasn't really until the tail end of the 60s we started being better off - then my dad's mine closed, so my mum had to take a job cleaning a school. There were no welfare benefits in Britain like people get now, families in our position just had to get on with it.

I never completed my education until I was 35 when I got my degree from University of London, my parents couldn't afford for me to stay on at school beyond 16 so I got an office job and took vocational qualifications on day release and at night school. I had to move to London when I was 23 as my home town and the surrounding area was affected by the miners strike in 1984 and there was little or no work around. I also worked all the way through my 3 years at university, any local job I could get.

So forgive me for thinking that wasn't an easy life compared to what the youth of today have going for them. I see it with my husband's nephews and niece, mid to late 20s and still living at home saying they can't afford to move out, yet they have nice cars, the latest gadgets and pre lockdown were never done clubbing and going on holidays. Nice lifestyle if you can get it.
So you are deducting the economic situation of an entire generation based on what you think you see from your nieces? It's great to hear that your family apparently worked its way up from working class to middle class... mine too: grandpa was a metal worker and my dad was the first to get a higher education. But the large trend in western countries goes unfortunately the opposite direction: most kids will have less wealth than their parents. The opportunities to work yourself out of the situation you were in are even worse today. Claiming that the kids have it so easy today is frankly just ignorant of the situation most young people are in. And that was before Covid...

Your specific family story wont change the simple statistic truth either that your generation lived well above their means. They also pass on debt and environmental problems of unheard of scale to the next...
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  #83  
Old 10.08.2021, 10:15
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Yes

Not in my case, I remember Animal Farm and One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich - really good discussions on Lenin and Stalin. Only as an adult did I discover Le Carre and wider views of the cold war.

No, I do not think it is worse today. I am happy to be labelled woke - it was definitely not mainstream 30 years ago and if you do not get too precious about it, being socially aware seems pretty OK to me. Just finished Dancing with the Tsars -hilarious.
I agree that Le Carre is good stuff and really opens a window into that period. A mix of nostalgia and cold hard thrill.

I felt the stuff we read at school was often too socially focussed and I wished we could have read more broadly and touched on more different topics and genres.

For two years I had an English teacher whose nickname was Trotsky and who was ultra socially and politically motivated while at the same time being a tad inexperienced or at least unable to read the mood in the class. It backfired on her badly a couple of times. To the point that once the entire class stood up and refused to do an assignment. That was a lesson too in a way. Probably more valuable than whatever the assignment was.
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  #84  
Old 10.08.2021, 10:20
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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That "bank of mum and dad" comment is the exact slap in the face to any young worker in the UK who has to live through this: "In England in 2020, full-time employees could typically expect to spend around 7.8 times their workplace-based annual earnings on purchasing a home"
That's an interesting and rather disturbing link. It compares back to 1997. Do you perhaps know of statistics, please, that show a comparison further back to previous generations?
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  #85  
Old 10.08.2021, 10:27
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That's an interesting and rather disturbing link. It compares back to 1997. Do you perhaps know of statistics, please, that show a comparison further back to previous generations?
I dont know the UK housing market that well... but the numbers look even worse in Switzerland - there is no way an average size, average income family can afford buying a property in their 20s in Zurich out of their own income. Everyone who I know who did was usually older. typically 30s-40s, usually had at least 3-4 times the average family income and in many cases inherited at least part of the down payment in some form or another.
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  #86  
Old 10.08.2021, 10:28
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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That's an interesting and rather disturbing link. It compares back to 1997. Do you perhaps know of statistics, please, that show a comparison further back to previous generations?
The reason house prices have become unaffordable is all the props, multiple 'help to buy' schemes, stamp duty holidays & interest rates substantially below the rate of inflation.
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  #87  
Old 10.08.2021, 10:43
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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The reason house prices have become unaffordable is all the props, multiple 'help to buy' schemes, stamp duty holidays & interest rates substantially below the rate of inflation.
None of that applies to Switzerland though and the prices got even more unaffordable here...
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  #88  
Old 10.08.2021, 10:46
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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None of that applies to Switzerland though and the prices got even more unaffordable here...
Interest rates are too low, hence it's cheaper than renting.....
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Old 10.08.2021, 13:02
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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I dont know the UK housing market that well... but the numbers look even worse in Switzerland - there is no way an average size, average income family can afford buying a property in their 20s in Zurich out of their own income. Everyone who I know who did was usually older. typically 30s-40s, usually had at least 3-4 times the average family income and in many cases inherited at least part of the down payment in some form or another.
I had understood that 20 to 40 years ago, in Switzerland, many more people rented (the bulk of the urban population) than now, and that bit by bit more people have managed to scrape together what it takes to buy. I don't however, have a link to show that.
EDIT: Here are some statistic, showing that the ration of ownership to tenancy has increased in almost all the cantons, since 1970. https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home...ts-owners.html


Yes, I agree that most people I know (besides the very wealthly) who have managed to buy was well over 30 or 40. I've never actually heard of any family of average income being able to buy a home in their 20s, in Switzerland, not in any of the generations now alive, nor the generation older than those now very old. Or am I missing something, and was that really possible, in some previous time, in Switzerland?
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Old 10.08.2021, 13:10
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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None of that applies to Switzerland though and the prices got even more unaffordable here...
Hasn't Switzerland always been a country of low-interest mortgages, relatively speaking?
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  #91  
Old 10.08.2021, 13:48
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Yes, I agree that most people I know (besides the very wealthly) who have managed to buy was well over 30 or 40. I've never actually heard of any family of average income being able to buy a home in their 20s, in Switzerland, not in any of the generations now alive, nor the generation older than those now very old. Or am I missing something, and was that really possible, in some previous time, in Switzerland?
I know of several families out in the deep sticks who inherited their houses from parents or grandparents or aunts etc.

Maybe they need to pay out some siblings or cousins etc. But it's still easier than every generation starting from scratch.
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  #92  
Old 10.08.2021, 13:53
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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I know of several families out in the deep sticks who inherited their houses from parents or grandparents or aunts etc.

Maybe they need to pay out some siblings or cousins etc. But it's still easier than every generation starting from scratch.
In CH people tend to retain a 65% mortgage, so often the children don't earn enough to satisfy the Bank & the property needs to be sold.
Inheriting a house with a mortgage not covered by life insurance & a house free from debt is a very different story.
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Old 10.08.2021, 14:11
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Hasn't Switzerland always been a country of low-interest mortgages, relatively speaking?
Low inflation begets nominally low interest rates, so yes.

However, with longer term inflation in the 0.0-0.5% range for more than two decades now, mortgage rates in the 2% range would be "natural" (the lenders want some payback for the risk). That would pretty much undo the relative price advantage of owning over renting.

That said, investing the capital instead of owning your home would have yielded even bigger returns, despite the leverage that's generally used with owning, and without the illiquidity this brings.

----------------------------------------

For someone owning to let, moderate inflation is the best thing there is. The inflation causes an increased mortgage interest rate but that's paid for by the renters, whereas the mortgage's loss of value (caused by that increased inflation) goes into the owner's pockets. Inflation in the 3-6% range is probably a landlord's equivalent of a wet dream.
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  #94  
Old 10.08.2021, 14:58
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Hasn't Switzerland always been a country of low-interest mortgages, relatively speaking?
Yes, but the interest rate is for first home buyers (been there... ) not the key argument. Affordability is. In the US will banks happily lend you 120% of the valuation so you can go an upgrade the house, buy a car or whatever else... in Switzerland have banks even before the 2008 financial crisis been extremly conservative: not only do you need to have a substantial down payment most people will struggle with - most banks will massively undervaluate property "just to be on the safe side". In reality does this mean that you can only finance a part of the property and need to either happen to have the cash for the difference in your pocket or have some wealthy relatives help you out.

I am in no way saying the US approach is better - I am just saying that most of the "why dont you buy a house" incentives you can find in the UK have no equivalent in CH.
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Old 10.08.2021, 15:12
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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I am in no way saying the US approach is better - I am just saying that most of the "why dont you buy a house" incentives you can find in the UK have no equivalent in CH.
The tax system, in the UK a main home has no tax on the benefit in kind (unique) & zero CGT (unique). In CH you are taxed on both those elements however can deduct interest costs & some repairs.

In the late 90's UK house prices were very cheap, London sold for 2.5 times earnings so prices have risen 4-5 times in real terms as interest rates collapsed. However repayments based on earnings are lower today as interest rates fell far more than 5 times.

I have a Friend who was buying student houses in Plymouth for 60-70k, he got the deposit from credit cards, as prices rose re-mortgaged & bought more.
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  #96  
Old 10.08.2021, 16:08
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Low inflation begets nominally low interest rates, so yes.

However, with longer term inflation in the 0.0-0.5% range for more than two decades now, mortgage rates in the 2% range would be "natural" (the lenders want some payback for the risk). That would pretty much undo the relative price advantage of owning over renting.

That said, investing the capital instead of owning your home would have yielded even bigger returns, despite the leverage that's generally used with owning, and without the illiquidity this brings.

----------------------------------------

For someone owning to let, moderate inflation is the best thing there is. The inflation causes an increased mortgage interest rate but that's paid for by the renters, whereas the mortgage's loss of value (caused by that increased inflation) goes into the owner's pockets. Inflation in the 3-6% range is probably a landlord's equivalent of a wet dream.
Maybe it's just my personal perspective, but it seems to me the banks are not extremely pushy with mortgages here.

I have been living in CH for almost 30 years now and been banking with ZKB for most of that time. Initially as a student and stayed on where I started earning. I think I never received any in-my-face information concerning mortgages, whether passively or even pushing me towards a sell.

My OH is German and her German bank is continuously saying that she would be better off buying and not renting and trying to invite her to a personal discussion to explain it to her better. And this although she no longer lives in Germany and no longer has a German address, something their computer seems not to have picked up.

Maybe this pushiness is also yielding fruit and putting more people into property, including people who would be better off renting.
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  #97  
Old 10.08.2021, 16:13
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Yes, but the interest rate is for first home buyers (been there... ) not the key argument. Affordability is. In the US will banks happily lend you 120% of the valuation so you can go an upgrade the house, buy a car or whatever else... in Switzerland have banks even before the 2008 financial crisis been extremly conservative: not only do you need to have a substantial down payment most people will struggle with - most banks will massively undervaluate property "just to be on the safe side". In reality does this mean that you can only finance a part of the property and need to either happen to have the cash for the difference in your pocket or have some wealthy relatives help you out.

I am in no way saying the US approach is better - I am just saying that most of the "why dont you buy a house" incentives you can find in the UK have no equivalent in CH.
A colleague at work recently bought an appartment in Baden. the bank decided it was undervalued and lent her the full sum with no down payment.

It may have helped that it was a very cheap appartment. Maybe 2 annual salaries or less even.

So banks don't always undervalue.
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  #98  
Old 10.08.2021, 16:22
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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A colleague at work recently bought an appartment in Baden. the bank decided it was undervalued and lent her the full sum with no down payment.

It may have helped that it was a very cheap appartment. Maybe 2 annual salaries or less even.

So banks don't always undervalue.
New stuff will likely be undervalued as all the fittings are new & will depreciate quickly, in addition to the developers profit. A 2 year old flat is worth less to most people than a brand new one.
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Old 10.08.2021, 17:21
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

We saved up for 10 years and bought the house that we now live in within 20 clicks of Zurich and a second in Kt. Argau. We have about 19 years to unload them both as there is no intent to retire here. So first world...
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Old 10.08.2021, 18:30
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

"Your specific family story wont change the simple statistic truth either that your generation lived well above their means".

I think that would have depended on where in the UK you were living. In outer London we certainly were not living above our means, we never even had anything like a new car until 2002, 2 years before we moved to Scotland. During the 80s and 90s I knew an awful lot of people in Scotland who were far more comfortably off than we were, despite me working for a Japanese bank in the City and my OH working his way up to being a company director in the metal finishing industry. It was only the stupid ones who racked up debt and ended up with houses in negative equity.
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