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  #101  
Old 10.08.2021, 18:50
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

"Also factor in the exposure to drug epidemics and violence (much of it gang related) that modern youths in poverty have to deal with in the many poor areas throughout the UK that are ridden with them. Did you have that in your day too?"

Chuff, in reply to that, Glasgow in the 60s/70s it was notorious for razor gangs. The Easterhouse district was never out of the press. My home town in the early 70s had gangs of boys looking like Little Alex and his Droogs from A Clockwork Orange. They'd go into other districts and fight with a gang from there, often armed with sharpened steel tail combs. Drugs were starting to become a big problem in Scotland from the 70s and by the early to mid 80s in the big cities had major issues with drug addicts. Irvine Welsh's novel Trainspotting is set in and around Edinburgh's Leith in the 80s; a friend of mines who was training to be a nurse in Edinburgh in the late 70s lived in Leith because it was all she could afford on her salary, she said it was hellish.

Scotland now has the highest number of drug related deaths in Europe, so at least we're No 1 at something

So yes, there were problems with gangs and drugs in my youth, it's not a new phenomena by any means. I did voluntary work that involved coming into contact with addicts about 12 years ago, sadly many were my age and had been on drugs since their teens and 20s.
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  #102  
Old 10.08.2021, 19:38
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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"Your specific family story wont change the simple statistic truth either that your generation lived well above their means".

I think that would have depended on where in the UK you were living. In outer London we certainly were not living above our means, we never even had anything like a new car until 2002, 2 years before we moved to Scotland. During the 80s and 90s I knew an awful lot of people in Scotland who were far more comfortably off than we were, despite me working for a Japanese bank in the City and my OH working his way up to being a company director in the metal finishing industry. It was only the stupid ones who racked up debt and ended up with houses in negative equity.
Absolutely.

My dad had a job as a senior scientist at a lab on the outskirts of London, but because we couldn't afford a house suitable for a family anywhere near London, we went to Reading and my dad had to take on a commute of more than an hour each way, including all the vagaries and unpredictability of 1980s British Rail plus a long slog on the Tube. At the time it was extremely rare for any of us to get to wear new clothes. My mother mostly went to Ox fam for our clothes (and her own) and I got bullied at school because of it. It's a good thing we had school uniforms so most people never found out. But it was often embarrassing if people from school saw me in town. I always took a packed lunch to school because my parents couldn't afford the lunch money. They rented out the spare room to lodgers and my mother did various little jobs on the side just to make ends meet. But during all this time the house was appreciating in value like crazy and when they finally retired and moved out and sold, it was like striking the jackpot.
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  #103  
Old 10.08.2021, 20:10
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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"Your specific family story wont change the simple statistic truth either that your generation lived well above their means".

I think that would have depended on where in the UK you were living. In outer London we certainly were not living above our means, we never even had anything like a new car until 2002, 2 years before we moved to Scotland. During the 80s and 90s I knew an awful lot of people in Scotland who were far more comfortably off than we were, despite me working for a Japanese bank in the City and my OH working his way up to being a company director in the metal finishing industry. It was only the stupid ones who racked up debt and ended up with houses in negative equity.
You honestly dont get me. You did not live above your means in the sense that you could not afford the bills you got in the post. You did as your entire generation by taking on a lot of debt, around what? 85% of the UKs yearly GDP? And spend it on anything from social services to tax cuts for the rich depending on who was in power... your generation hands over a country thats worse set up for the future than when you took over from the previous generation. Simple. You also lived over your means in an environmental sense as at no time in history have resources been wasted as much and on such a scale as during the 60s to 90s.
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  #104  
Old 10.08.2021, 20:34
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

I'm not going to get into an argument about this but the only debt we had in 1987 was the mortgage we had on our house (70% of the purchase price as we sold a flat to buy it, purchase price of the house was 77.5k sterling). The mortgage interest was subsidised down to 3% as I worked in a bank and we lived in that house for 17 years.

Sure, there were a lot of people trading up every couple of years because the property market in Britain was booming in the 80s, but in London that was more to do with affluent middle classes who were moving to areas like Battersea, Islington and Hackney. It didn't include ordinary people like me. One odious person I worked with in the City was moving to Wapping because as he put it "it's so fashionable these days to live next door to abject poverty"
I include Tony Blair in that, he was furious when he had to sell his Islington house to move to Downing Street when he was elected PM, because the buyer was eventually able to sell it on for much more than he did.

And as far as poverty goes, the Blair governments from 1997 onwards bought votes by throwing welfare benefits at too many undeserving people - they also created poverty of ambition and laziness which successive governments have never been able to sort out.
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  #105  
Old 10.08.2021, 20:44
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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I include Tony Blair in that, he was furious when he had to sell his Islington house to move to Downing Street when he was elected PM, because the buyer was eventually able to sell it on for much more than he did.
I think if you believe Tony 'HAD' to sell you are mistaken, his property portfolio today valued is in excess of £35 million.
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  #106  
Old 10.08.2021, 21:26
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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You honestly dont get me. You did not live above your means in the sense that you could not afford the bills you got in the post. You did as your entire generation by taking on a lot of debt, around what? 85% of the UKs yearly GDP? And spend it on anything from social services to tax cuts for the rich depending on who was in power... your generation hands over a country thats worse set up for the future than when you took over from the previous generation. Simple. You also lived over your means in an environmental sense as at no time in history have resources been wasted as much and on such a scale as during the 60s to 90s.
I think I understand what you are saying, in that the politicians and governments of previous decades took decisions which - had things been done with greater vision for the future - might have left young people, nowadays, in a better situation. Certainly environmentally and probably financially, too.

It seems that you, Treverus, are using "living beyond one's means" applied to a generation, in the sense of, for example, Earth Overshoot Day, explained here
https://youtu.be/H87Ck1Pc6fM, or here
https://youtu.be/ynerPGpEW_I
while Cherub is using it, as you put it "affording the bills you get in the post".
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  #107  
Old 10.08.2021, 21:30
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

Oh, this made me laugh.

Lachlan Patterson (2018)
The new old people are going to suck
https://youtu.be/uSh5voSUhrs
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  #108  
Old 11.08.2021, 00:26
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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I think I understand what you are saying, in that the politicians and governments of previous decades took decisions which - had things been done with greater vision for the future - might have left young people, nowadays, in a better situation. Certainly environmentally and probably financially, too.

It seems that you, Treverus, are using "living beyond one's means" applied to a generation, in the sense of, for example, Earth Overshoot Day, explained here
https://youtu.be/H87Ck1Pc6fM, or here
https://youtu.be/ynerPGpEW_I
while Cherub is using it, as you put it "affording the bills you get in the post".
Yes. Exactly. And its not "just" the environment. Simple example: The German retirement fund works differently than the UK system in the sense that you do not save into an account for yourself - all money collected at a given time from the working people gets distributed to the retired. That made sense as we had a lot of old and invalid people after ww2 who had no opportunity to save for themselves... so its a generational system. ALL politicians of ALL parties knew that this is not going to work with an increasingly aging population and a lot less kids than we had in the past. All the projections were there since the mid 60s. No politician dared to make any cut ever to the current generation as he would for sure not get elected again... so the problem was left to escalate. For six decades. So my generation can expect to be the one who pays in for decades but not get enough out anymore to have a decent living. So the baby boomer had their cake and ate it... because democracy... retirement fund is one example. Education system another. Healthcare... unemployment benefits... you name it. Because politicians in a democracy fear the voters who have no interest in future generations. We also know for a fact that oil will be running out for decades before there were the first half-serious efforts to improve renewable energy. Same reasons. So any of the people old today complaining about how the young ones buy so many smartphones: Just think a little more than that about the impact your generation really had...
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  #109  
Old 11.08.2021, 07:02
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Yes. Exactly. And its not "just" the environment. Simple example: The German retirement fund works differently than the UK system in the sense that you do not save into an account for yourself - all money collected at a given time from the working people gets distributed to the retired. That made sense as we had a lot of old and invalid people after ww2 who had no opportunity to save for themselves... so its a generational system. ALL politicians of ALL parties knew that this is not going to work with an increasingly aging population and a lot less kids than we had in the past. All the projections were there since the mid 60s. No politician dared to make any cut ever to the current generation as he would for sure not get elected again... so the problem was left to escalate. For six decades. So my generation can expect to be the one who pays in for decades but not get enough out anymore to have a decent living. So the baby boomer had their cake and ate it... because democracy... retirement fund is one example. Education system another. Healthcare... unemployment benefits... you name it. Because politicians in a democracy fear the voters who have no interest in future generations. We also know for a fact that oil will be running out for decades before there were the first half-serious efforts to improve renewable energy. Same reasons. So any of the people old today complaining about how the young ones buy so many smartphones: Just think a little more than that about the impact your generation really had...
Not sure why you think the UK is any different. Sadly, the state pension is also funded out of current tax receipts. Any even bigger problem in my view is the unfunded public sector defined benefit pensions, which for some reason don’t show up as a liability on the UK balance sheet.

Higher education is the same. I was the first year that had to pay tuition fees and take student loans. If I had been a few years older it would have been free tuition and a cost of living grant. However, I had it nowhere near as bad as the current students who pay £9k a year (mine was £1k).

It’s funny that in the UK Germany is often held up as a shining example of doing things right, yet you seem to be painting in the opposite view. Is it a case of both sides thinking the grass is greener, but actually both fields are full of cow shit?

I also see articles saying that the Swiss pensions system is in danger. Admittedly I haven’t looked into it in detail, but my general feeling is that the Swiss state is broadly speaking very well run, certainly in comparison to the rest of Western Europe.
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  #110  
Old 11.08.2021, 07:12
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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…….(…) So my generation can expect to be the one who pays in for decades but not get enough out anymore to have a decent living. (…)
………Just think a little more than that about the impact your generation really had...
?
My generation / Your generation
How old do we think we all are?

For instance there can’t be more than ~10 years between you and I, so we’re all in this together and none of us in Europe & the US will have a decent retirement due to the points you’ve explained in your thread but also and far more so because of the post war exploding demographics.
It’s not a secret, you’ve got an upside down demographic pyramid:
- far more people born just after the war (natural reaction to disaster and loss)
- advance in medicine, hence people are living way longer
- not enough kids born after to pay into that social security and pension pot

It’s not a specific generation’s fault.

And as AbFab said, they had no clue what was going on.

Yes I agree the young are struggling immensely and it’s absolutely not fair on them, and so are we the less young.

But that doesn’t take away the fact the world and its technology today is making it very clear to the elderly to either get with it or to be pushed aside.

The generations have become too isolated, too split apart as if there were separate categories. We’ve moved from a world where the strength was found within the family with grandma and grandpa close by available to watch over grandbabies, to a world where every day the kids are parked in a creche, the elderly are forgotten in a home, and the generation sandwiched in between work like nuts to sustain the ascending and descending generations and are so tired they don’t even know why they feel resentful.

It is what it is.

Sometimes it’s good though to just stop a moment and assess the situation and try and make a difference, even a little one, if it means it’s going to reassure someone, make their life easier, or make them smile.
We’d all feel a little less isolated a little more human and connected to each other if we did.
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  #111  
Old 11.08.2021, 08:49
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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I also see articles saying that the Swiss pensions system is in danger. Admittedly I haven’t looked into it in detail, but my general feeling is that the Swiss state is broadly speaking very well run, certainly in comparison to the rest of Western Europe.
Do you mean pensions of AHV?

Both systems have problems of their own which will only get worse over time.

But Switzerland is still a a paradise compared to much of the rest of Europe. Because in contrast to say Germany, there are still politicians in Switzerland who say, we need to slam on the brakes, and they get re-elected nevertheless. Or maybe they get re-elected because they dare talk about these things.
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  #112  
Old 11.08.2021, 08:53
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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?
My generation / Your generation
How old do we think we all are?

For instance there can’t be more than ~10 years between you and I, so we’re all in this together and none of us in Europe & the US will have a decent retirement due to the points you’ve explained in your thread but also and far more so because of the post war exploding demographics.
It’s not a secret, you’ve got an upside down demographic pyramid:
- far more people born just after the war (natural reaction to disaster and loss)
- advance in medicine, hence people are living way longer
- not enough kids born after to pay into that social security and pension pot

It’s not a specific generation’s fault.

And as AbFab said, they had no clue what was going on.

Yes I agree the young are struggling immensely and it’s absolutely not fair on them, and so are we the less young.

But that doesn’t take away the fact the world and its technology today is making it very clear to the elderly to either get with it or to be pushed aside.

The generations have become too isolated, too split apart as if there were separate categories. We’ve moved from a world where the strength was found within the family with grandma and grandpa close by available to watch over grandbabies, to a world where every day the kids are parked in a creche, the elderly are forgotten in a home, and the generation sandwiched in between work like nuts to sustain the ascending and descending generations and are so tired they don’t even know why they feel resentful.

It is what it is.

Sometimes it’s good though to just stop a moment and assess the situation and try and make a difference, even a little one, if it means it’s going to reassure someone, make their life easier, or make them smile.
We’d all feel a little less isolated a little more human and connected to each other if we did.
Annnn ironically, it is technology that has made old people and young people feel less isolated and lonely during COVID and before COVID. No longer do the elderly have to wait for family visits, they can call them any time and see them on video any time. Isn't technology great?

Honestly, this thread is amusing simply because of how it is a complaint about how technology is making life more difficult for old people, when the fact is that technology has overall dramatically improved quality of life for the elderly in many tangible ways.

But sure, moan about how old people are pushed aside because they have to learn how to use a mobile phone and use security functions for online banking which are measures that have been introduced for their (and everyone elses) own safety. Sigh.

This thread is more of a general outlet for people's frustrations in life and with getting old than any valid complaint about technology.

Last edited by Chuff; 11.08.2021 at 09:26.
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  #113  
Old 11.08.2021, 09:50
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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But sure, moan about how old people are pushed aside because they have to learn how to use a mobile phone and use security functions for online banking which are measures that have been introduced for their (and everyone elses) own safety. Sigh.

This thread is more of a general outlet for people's frustrations in life and with getting old than any valid complaint about technology.
Reminds me of people who speak very loudly at another person who doesn’t speak their language with the hope that if they raise their voice:
1) it confirms that the other is obviously an idiot
2) they just might be understood if they yell loud enough

😶

What don’t you get?
There is a vast majority of elderly who cannot figure out today’s technology
As a result they will be set aside from every day life

As somebody said (amogles?) technology should adapt to all people not the other way round.
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  #114  
Old 11.08.2021, 09:55
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Reminds me of people who speak very loudly at another person who doesn’t speak their language with the hope that if they raise their voice:
1) it confirms that the other is obviously an idiot
2) they just might be understood if they yell loud enough

��

What don’t you get?
There is a vast majority of elderly who cannot figure out today’s technology
As a result they will be set aside from every day life

As somebody said (amogles?) technology should adapt to all people not the other way round.
I don't get the scale of this complaint because I do not think it holds up to scrutiny, "especially to say "older people are being pushed aside". You also say a 'vast majority' of elderly can't figure out technology; including basic things like operating mobile phones and using online services? Do you have any kind of statistics to back that up or is it your 'personal opinion'?

The statistics say otherwise https://theconversation.com/how-tech...seniors-103878

is it harder and more frustrating in general for the elderly to learn these things? Yes. Is it impossible for the vast majority? No, of course not. Most can do it given time and patience and most have family to help them through every step of the way. The proportion who will be unable to do it will be comparatively small.

Last edited by Chuff; 11.08.2021 at 10:09.
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  #115  
Old 11.08.2021, 10:55
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Do you mean pensions of AHV?

Both systems have problems of their own which will only get worse over time.

But Switzerland is still a a paradise compared to much of the rest of Europe. Because in contrast to say Germany, there are still politicians in Switzerland who say, we need to slam on the brakes, and they get re-elected nevertheless. Or maybe they get re-elected because they dare talk about these things.
I think both. I haven’t looked in too much detail, as while they will both form an important part of my retirement plans, I can’t control it and am making my own provisions.

The Swiss (citizens) aren’t perfect though - was it once or twice they voted against small temporary tax raises (VAT to 8% for a couple of years IIRC) to fill the ALV gap.
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Old 11.08.2021, 11:08
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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I think both. I haven’t looked in too much detail, as while they will both form an important part of my retirement plans, I can’t control it and am making my own provisions.
Me too, I would definitely not rely on these two system alone.

The problem with AHV is that there is not enough money in the kitty and more is being payed out than is being payed in. Sooner or later something is going to give and that may mean we all get less out.

The pensions have more the problem that the money is factually invested in low-risk funds, bonds and things and the return on these things has been very low over the last decade or two meaning that whereas previous generations could benefit from a comfortable growth with compound interest, we will more or less get out what we payed in, which for some people is not going to be enough for a comfortable retirement.

Other safety nets are looking dire too. From what I've heard the IV has been used overly generously for example and will also face a crunch at some point.
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  #117  
Old 11.08.2021, 11:49
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

Had the joy of meeting my son's downstairs neighbour. A very old woman who loves to moan about everything. At length...

Hates change, hates interacting with people. Obviously finds the modern world so scary. Really really sad.

Noddy dog, sympathetic smiley mode adopted. It must be sad to be so miserable. And it's a vicious circle. You moan too much at everyone and no one wants to be with you any more. And then you sit alone in your apartment waiting to die.
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  #118  
Old 11.08.2021, 11:54
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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?
For instance there can’t be more than ~10 years between you and I
In that case would I not consider you elderly... and you probably didnt vote in the 70s...
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Old 11.08.2021, 12:26
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Had the joy of meeting my son's downstairs neighbour. A very old woman who loves to moan about everything. At length...

Hates change, hates interacting with people. Obviously finds the modern world so scary. Really really sad.

Noddy dog, sympathetic smiley mode adopted. It must be sad to be so miserable. And it's a vicious circle. You moan too much at everyone and no one wants to be with you any more. And then you sit alone in your apartment waiting to die.
That is the definition of loneliness
There are a vast amount of them
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Old 11.08.2021, 12:49
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? — Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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It’s funny that in the UK Germany is often held up as a shining example of doing things right, yet you seem to be painting in the opposite view. Is it a case of both sides thinking the grass is greener, but actually both fields are full of cow shit?
I dont know the UK well enough to comment on it, but I think these comments in the UK are based on this: https://countryeconomy.com/countries...any/uk?sc=XE02

Germany used to have much higher debt than the UK, but specifically the Merkel government has worked hard to fix that. In the last ten years did they reduce spending and famously attracted millions of young immigrants - first from the EU, for example Greece, then from the "refugee crisis" - to patch some gaps. The results pre-Covid are actually pretty impressive... but as long as you dont fix the underlying problems will that only be a short term improvement. And of course did the "reduce spending" bit go at a high social cost. The UK always considers to be Germany some sort of socialism... but in reality is the wealth easily as unfairly distributed and the working class is getting a lot less welfare than in the generation before... which was pretty much my point.
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