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Old 08.08.2021, 11:06
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Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the elderly

Today, everywhere, is so unfair to the elderly.

If they don’t have internet, suppliers often add a franc or two for a paper invoice, yet it is our elderly, Swiss or foreign, who have the least money.

Now the billing system is changing, and all future invoices will have QR codes, so what happens to our elderly if they don’t know how to use a smart phone correctly?

Most appointments all over the world are online, and sometimes menus in restaurants are accessed via a QR code.

If they want to travel, it’s an uphill battle on their knees with all paper work done electronically.

We don’t see them, if they cannot run fast enough to keep up with all the technology required to live a simple daily life.
They become transparent, everywhere.

And yet they are a world of experience, of history, of stories.
It seems that nobody takes the time anymore to listen.
Everywhere, not just here.

Does anybody else have this impression or is it just an irrational thought?
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Old 08.08.2021, 11:17
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Today, everywhere, is so unfair to the elderly.

If they dont have internet, suppliers often add a franc or two for a paper invoice, yet it is our elderly, Swiss or foreign, who have the least money.

Now the billing system is changing, and all future invoices will have QR codes, so what happens to our elderly if they dont know how to use a smart phone correctly?

Most appointments all over the world are online, and sometimes menus in restaurants are accessed via a QR code.

If they want to travel, its an uphill battle on their knees with all paper work done electronically.


We dont see them, if they cannot run fast enough to keep up with all the technology required to live a simple daily life.
They become transparent, everywhere.

And yet they are a world of experience, of history, of stories.
It seems that nobody takes the time anymore to listen.
Everywhere, not just here.

Does anybody else have this impression or is it just an irrational thought?
I think you make valid points. I suppose this is why we need to watch out for others in our communities. Not always sure how to do this. Multiple generation families are becoming rare in many societies.
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Old 08.08.2021, 11:21
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

What is "old"?

I'm not.
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Old 08.08.2021, 11:47
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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What is "old"?

I'm not.
Its subjective. I dont believe I am old either.
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Old 08.08.2021, 11:55
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

Le coeur na pas de rides
The heart has no wrinkles.

You go bowie!! 😊

I agree with you ennui, if only we could find a way to do more for them.
Its a technical electronic jungle for many of them today.
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Old 08.08.2021, 11:56
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

Is there some sort of charity here where tech-savvy, but patient people can volunteer to teach people* how to use online and mobile services?

*I specifically didn't say old people because some are very tech-knowledgeable and/or take to it like a duck to water. Some younger people can have real problems.
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Old 08.08.2021, 12:39
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Is there some sort of charity here where tech-savvy, but patient people can volunteer to teach people* how to use online and mobile services?

*I specifically didn't say old people because some are very tech-knowledgeable and/or take to it like a duck to water. Some younger people can have real problems.
Perhaps, but this would be regional, the local branch of pro senectute. That's an organisation to promote the interests of the aged. They are partly government funded, and offer advice about, for example, getting in nursing or going into a retirement home. There is also pro juventute which does tries to do the equivalent help, for that phase of life, for young people. And pro mente sana for people with psychological ill-health. And pro infirmis for people with disabilities.

At least pro senectute and pro infirmis offer a service whereby a volunteer goes to visit someone who needs help with their general administration. The volunteer has to have passed a day-course at pro senectute, and be deemed serious. When they do the home visits, they help the person open their post, sort out the documents, work out which bills need to be paid, (but the volunteer cannot touch the money), which letters need to be written. They then do these things together, right there, in the person's home.

I would imagine, but don't know, that such a volunteer could also teach the person how to do all these things online, too.


In addition, some local municipalities or community centres, and some churches (even for people who have no religious or spiritual affinity to the church) offer so-called writing workshops, which are to do much the same thing as above, but typically not in the person's home but in the church/centre, to help people understand the letters they get, and fill in forms, etc. There, too, there is probably room for teaching internet skills.


If one would like to volunteer outside of an organisation, it's possible to put up an add on rent-a-rentner, which is a website helping retired people (mainly, but actually anyone can join) to offer their services, if they would still like to work a little on the side. One can state an hourly rate, or can be willing to work for free. It's a great idea, but unfortunately the website is terribly implemented and so, paradoxically, very challenging to use for the very people who might really need it.
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Old 08.08.2021, 15:03
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Is there some sort of charity here where tech-savvy, but patient people can volunteer to teach people* how to use online and mobile services?
Yes, it's called grandchildren

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*I specifically didn't say old people because some are very tech-knowledgeable and/or take to it like a duck to water. Some younger people can have real problems.
From people in my family, I believe it is not a question of patience or teaching, but that some things are just beyond their grasp or willoingness to learn. What it needs is interfaces and devices designed with non tech-knowledgeable people in mind. The technology needs to adapt to the people, not vice versa.

For example I recently saw a telephone. It looked just like an old fashioned desk telephone with big buttons (big enough for those with bad eyesight or clumsy fingers) and a receiver on a hook. Just like phones in decades past. But it didn't connect to a landline but to a mobile. This is the sort of thinking we need more of. Not bling phones that are loaded with apps upon apps.
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Old 08.08.2021, 12:05
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Today, everywhere, is so unfair to the elderly.

If they dont have internet, suppliers often add a franc or two for a paper invoice, yet it is our elderly, Swiss or foreign, who have the least money.
My father would be 93, when he was alive he used email & religiously printed all pdf invoices. He was far from tech savvy.

My wife's step mother of 76 does everything digitally, are my experiences so unusual?
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Old 08.08.2021, 12:12
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

You are old when everyone you think is older than you is actually younger.

Tom
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Old 08.08.2021, 12:21
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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My father would be 93, when he was alive he used email & religiously printed all pdf invoices. He was far from tech savvy.

My wife's step mother of 76 does everything digitally, are my experiences so unusual?
I'm with your dad, I print all my invoices off.

What annoys me most is slowly, but surely being pushed towards having to have a mobile phone, even though I have absolutely no need of one, just because more and more things require you to verify with an SMS message or some code sent to you on the damn thing. I was trying to log into the HMRC website the other week to do the accounts for our dormant UK company; guess what can only do that now with a mobile or tablet, neither of which I use/have. So what do I do now?

I get that it's the way the world is going, but I really wish they'd keep alternatives so those of us who don't have/want a mobile can still access things via a simple e-mail like before. Put a disclaimer in saying on our heads be it if something goes wrong, but at least give us other damn options people!
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Old 08.08.2021, 13:49
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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What annoys me most is slowly, but surely being pushed towards having to have a mobile phone, even though I have absolutely no need of one, just because more and more things require you to verify with an SMS message or some code sent to you on the damn thing.
It's because 2-factor authentication is becoming (or has already become) standard for all sensitive online services and the most secure and practical way to implement these is via a personal mobile phone that someone generally has on their person. With online attacks and data vreaches becoming more sophisticated, this stuff has to be enforced to stop vulnerable people (like you know, the elderly) from losing their money via fraud etc.

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I get that it's the way the world is going, but I really wish they'd keep alternatives so those of us who don't have/want a mobile can still access things via a simple e-mail like before. Put a disclaimer in saying on our heads be it if something goes wrong, but at least give us other damn options people!
From a security perspective, for people who are resistant/ignorant to proper security measures to have a say in what level of security they get for their sensitive online services is the last thing that should happen. "Simple emails" are not secure.
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Old 08.08.2021, 14:57
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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It's because 2-factor authentication is becoming (or has already become) standard for all sensitive online services and the most secure and practical way to implement these is via a personal mobile phone that someone generally has on their person. With online attacks and data vreaches becoming more sophisticated, this stuff has to be enforced to stop vulnerable people (like you know, the elderly) from losing their money via fraud etc.



From a security perspective, for people who are resistant/ignorant to proper security measures to have a say in what level of security they get for their sensitive online services is the last thing that should happen. "Simple emails" are not secure.

Can anybody imagine how daunting it must feel for an elderly person when they get phoned by a computer checking numbers?
One felt so intimidated by it he asked me if I could help reinstall his old phone (the old telecom 4 plug) so that he could have his real telephone back. Bless him.
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Old 08.08.2021, 15:26
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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It's because 2-factor authentication is becoming (or has already become) standard for all sensitive online services and the most secure and practical way to implement these is via a personal mobile phone that someone generally has on their person. With online attacks and data vreaches becoming more sophisticated, this stuff has to be enforced to stop vulnerable people (like you know, the elderly) from losing their money via fraud etc.



From a security perspective, for people who are resistant/ignorant to proper security measures to have a say in what level of security they get for their sensitive online services is the last thing that should happen. "Simple emails" are not secure.
Then as said, put out a disclaimer that if it goes wrong when using an e-mail then whatever company it is isn't liable for any losses incurred.

Being forced to use a mobile for no other reason than companies think they're more secure - and I'd argue that point - just grates on me when I have no need or reason to have one otherwise. Landline and PC work perfectly well for me.

And there's no reason they can't set up something in their apps which could work on desktops. Authy already has a desktop version, though admittedly you need to use the damn phone for the initial set up with any particular website. But that's been a godsend for me using Discord social media when Discord throws a wobbly and wants me to log in again. I can do it from my desktop without needing to use hubby's mobile. He's not always around when I need to log in.

All this is doing is forcing people like me who don't want a mobile or others who aren't tech savvy into either not using the internet at all for many things or having to do stuff in person like paying bills or the "old fashioned" method of posting payments to companies.
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Old 08.08.2021, 20:42
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Then as said, put out a disclaimer that if it goes wrong when using an e-mail then whatever company it is isn't liable for any losses incurred.
To even suggest with any seriousness is beyond daft and is a great example of why vulnerable people need protecting from themselves with regards to online security. Needless to say, you just need to learn the basics of ebanking and mobile phones like everyone else. Even my 83 year old grandma learned email and ebanking and she never had tech in her life until a few years ago. She struggled but persisted and now she knows the basics.

Also please everyone (Sky, Klostrers, Medea etc) stop with the dramatics... being made to use Ebanking and other online services does not equal the abandonment of all old people in society. Yeesh.
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Old 11.08.2021, 12:56
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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I'm with your dad, I print all my invoices off.

What annoys me most is slowly, but surely being pushed towards having to have a mobile phone, even though I have absolutely no need of one, just because more and more things require you to verify with an SMS message or some code sent to you on the damn thing. I was trying to log into the HMRC website the other week to do the accounts for our dormant UK company; guess what can only do that now with a mobile or tablet, neither of which I use/have. So what do I do now?

I get that it's the way the world is going, but I really wish they'd keep alternatives so those of us who don't have/want a mobile can still access things via a simple e-mail like before. Put a disclaimer in saying on our heads be it if something goes wrong, but at least give us other damn options people!
Totally agree. My credit card company shut down the online platform after moving it to a phone app. Now I have to use another app on my phone and transfer the statements to the desktop. Time for a new credit card.
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Old 11.08.2021, 13:59
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

I think we tend to make a mental cut-off somewhere, of who we feel is "old", depending partly upon the old-age pension schemes which define "old" (= eligible for old-age or retirement benefits). Depending on the country, these newly-old can be between 60 and 70, perhaps even more.

Below them are those from, say, age 45 or 50, the almost-old, who don't feel old yet, apart from some disconcerting new aches, but who may be perceived as so from those younger than them.

I think the ages of one's own parents and grandparents influences one's inherent feeling of age, too. A 20-year-old grandson whose grandmother who is a mere 35 years older than him is probably more likely to see a 70 year-old as unfathomably ancient (his great-grandfather) than his classmate whose own parents are aged 60.

Ahead of the newly pensioned, there are the very old, aged 75 or 80 to 100, for whom the 60-year olds are still sprightly young folk, 15 or even 40 years younger than they.
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Old 11.08.2021, 14:00
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

Other factors influencing whether or not an aging person can manage to keep abreast of technological advances, (can learn to use a smartphone or an ipad, can feel at home with mails, chats and video-calles, deal with QR-codes, can surf safely, watch youtube, avoid scams, book tickets and do e-banking) probably include the ranges of functional literacy, the educational background and the habit of learning, and also the extent to which technology was ever necessary in the former work setting of the young-old or the old-old. In addition, there are restraints placed by the limitations of physical health: needing to find one's glasses, fingers moving less precisely, rheumatic hands struggling to hold the device itself, and then to fiddle about plugging in the charger, or needing medication which may impair concentration, so on.

Having said that, I think there's a shift. Nursing homes are already feeling a difference, since one of first things those now considering entering as young-old say they want (or their children want it for them), is WiFi. The old-old, on the other hand, have much less of such need, once they're going into the home.

While they are living alone, however, they end up still needing services, but may not be able to command them, and those who can't become frustratingly dependent on the help of others... or they give up and don't get the services they need. A few years ago a retired neurologist told me that he'd decided to continue employing his secretary, part-time, because he was just too tired to learn all that would be needed, online, to run his life - all things he could formerly have achieved by snailmail or going to an enquiries desk.

If one lacks the connection to technology, or understanding it, whether from being too poor to own the devices, or being scholastically, physically and mentally unable (or even unwilling, just not choosing to, because other interests have priority) to do it... that has become a new handicap that wasn't there, before. During the past few years, I've had people - in Switzerland - aged 20, 40, 50, 70 and 85 asking me to look up a timetable for them, to print out something for them, or to correct a Word document, or write a mail, all of which they just did not know how to do. There are still huge gaps.
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Old 11.08.2021, 15:39
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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Totally agree. My credit card company shut down the online platform after moving it to a phone app. Now I have to use another app on my phone and transfer the statements to the desktop. Time for a new credit card.
What exactly do you do with the cc statements? Print them? File them? What do they tell you that you cannot see by checking on your phone?

I have no statements from my bank, credit cards or investments, except the end of the year statements for the tax declaration. I can see the up-to-date whenever I want, instantly on my phone...
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Old 11.08.2021, 16:42
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Re: Will you still love me when I am old? Today everywhere, is so unfair to the eld

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What exactly do you do with the cc statements? Print them? File them? What do they tell you that you cannot see by checking on your phone?

I have no statements from my bank, credit cards or investments, except the end of the year statements for the tax declaration. I can see the up-to-date whenever I want, instantly on my phone...
For me, its just more paper to shred and recycle.
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