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  #81  
Old 12.09.2021, 17:47
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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I am covid vaccinated and generally pro vaccine.

However the way things are going is really starting to upset me. There have been very few deaths and hospitalisation for under 30ies. And now, instead of hunting down the over 60ies who still have not gotten their vaccine (Not vaccinated range from 14 to 20% depending on the age group), we are making life more difficult for everyone.

When will it stop? Sometimes I feel like they are biking us like the proverbial frog....
Btw, on a lighter note, the fable about the frog being boiled slowly has no basis in reality...but the urban legend persists..... :-)
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  #82  
Old 12.09.2021, 17:49
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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This is a direct quote from the article I shared.
How is it fake news? or have we reached a point where everything that does not align with our respective world view = Fake......
Open up statista and study deaths per age group.

Also the fact that covid deaths are wildly different oer underlying health conditions is not news.
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  #83  
Old 12.09.2021, 17:51
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

For anyone who hasn't seen them yet, here are the new rules on certificates. They are in force from Monday 13th September 2021.
"The extended certificate requirement is for a limited period until 24 January 2022. The Federal Council can also lift the measure earlier if the situation in hospitals eases."
https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...-id-85035.html
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  #84  
Old 12.09.2021, 17:51
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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I found this photo by googling "unvaccinated phd" and finding this article:

https://unherd.com/thepost/the-most-...p-of-all-phds/

Original source is: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...795v1.full.pdf
Have you read the paper you’re citing? The chart is from an early version, and the current, full version has different data. Either you didn’t read it, or didn’t understand it.

There’s a very important disclaimer in the first paragraph of the “Study sample” section, that reads:
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To be included in the analysis sample, participants had to complete the questions on vaccine uptake and intent, and report a gender other than “prefer to self-describe.” This exclusion was made after discovering that the majority of fill-in responses for self-described gender were political/discriminatory statements or otherwise questionable answers (e.g. Apache Helicopter or Unicorn), and that as a group, those who selected self-described gender (<1% of the sample) had a high frequency of uncommon responses (e.g., Hispanic ethnicity [41.4%], the oldest age group [23.2% ≥75 years] and highest education level [28.1% Doctorate]), suggesting the survey was not completed in good faith.
The description of the education slice says: “The association between hesitancy and education level followed a U-shaped curve with the lowest hesitancy among those with a master’s degree, followed by those with a 4 year college degree, then a professional degree, and a doctorate. The highest hesitancy was among those with ≤high school education or some college (RR=1.89 [95%CI 1.84, 1.94] and 1.67 [95%CI 1.62, 1.71], respectively, versus a 4 year college degree). “

For full intellectual honesty, you should go over it at least.
The full version is here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...1260795v2.full
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  #85  
Old 12.09.2021, 17:54
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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I am covid vaccinated and generally pro vaccine.

However the way things are going is really starting to upset me. There have been very few deaths and hospitalisation for under 30ies. And now, instead of hunting down the over 60ies who still have not gotten their vaccine (Not vaccinated range from 14 to 20% depending on the age group), we are making life more difficult for everyone.

When will it stop? Sometimes I feel like they are biking us like the proverbial frog....
As I understand it, life will only be more difficult for the unvaccinated?
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  #86  
Old 12.09.2021, 17:55
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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I could explain how the vaccines work and why you need two shots but you don't need the science, you want the propaganda.
I could talk about herd immunity and how it varies by type of bacteria and virus and why you take the vaccine not just for yourself but for ensuring safety of the community but again that would be a wasted argument.
Imagine if the same anti vaxxer sentiment had prevailed when we were trying to get rid of Polio or SmallPox. What would have been the state of the world then.
Dont vaccinate yourself for yourself. Do it so that you protect your family and loved ones.

It's too simplistic to divide people up into pro vax or anti vax.


There are 3 types of people who aren't vaccinated, as things currently stand, I would say.


  1. Those without the choice because of access barriers, who would like to receive the injection (who also have no choice about testing)
  2. Those who are against all injections lifelong
  3. Those who don't yet feel ready to receive the COVID injection based on how little is known about the in/significance of it in these early days, and are waiting for longer-term data and studies to inform their choice
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  #87  
Old 12.09.2021, 17:55
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Thank you. Usually credible sources are the ones which are peer reviewed. This has not been peer reviewed. So I would take it with a pinch of salt.
I understand and you are free to do so. Having a PdD myself I'm well aware of the peer review process however and I have to say the quality of it is generally overestimated (including by myself before going through it in practice many times).

Not arguing to do away with the process of course. Although I do believe it should be fully transparent and published alongside the work.
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  #88  
Old 12.09.2021, 18:00
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Herd Immunitz typically requires vaccinations in excess of 80% (varies by bacteria/virus) and this is a very virulent virus which is mutating very quickly.
The 80% you mention regards for immunity percentage not vaccination rate. Don't forget about natural immunity (which is proven in an Israeli study to be 13 times more effective than immunity through vaccination).
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  #89  
Old 12.09.2021, 18:03
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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The 80% you mention regards for immunity percentage not vaccination rate. Don't forget about natural immunity (which is proven in an Israeli study to be 13 times more effective than immunity through vaccination).
True. If these unvaccinated on the ICU survive, they will have a superb immune system.
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  #90  
Old 12.09.2021, 18:04
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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True. If these unvaccinated on the ICU survive, they will have a superb immune system.
Like 99.99% of people ? Sure.
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  #91  
Old 12.09.2021, 18:06
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

May I remind you that a country where majority of you guys from ditched idea of Covid passes



Whatever CH is doing is more or less irrelevant from scientific point of view.
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  #92  
Old 12.09.2021, 18:08
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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You don't need a pass to eat if a restaurant has an outside terrace in Italy. Is it the same from Monday in CH ?
and what is a pass?

what is the minimum level it must fulfill?

how old can pcr and antibody tests be?

are foreign documents accepted?

will the barman tell me, i have to drink up quickly because my test expires in 10 minutes?
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  #93  
Old 12.09.2021, 18:11
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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As I understand it, life will only be more difficult for the unvaccinated?
Correct. No more bars or gyms etc. unless they get tested first.

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It's too simplistic to divide people up into pro vax or anti vax.


There are 3 types of people who aren't vaccinated, as things currently stand, I would say.


  1. Those without the choice because of access barriers, who would like to receive the injection (who also have no choice about testing)
  2. Those who are against all injections lifelong
  3. Those who don't yet feel ready to receive the COVID injection based on how little is known about the in/significance of it in these early days, and are waiting for longer-term data and studies to inform their choice
I'd really like to know who's those are in category one. Won't you please share it with us?
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  #94  
Old 12.09.2021, 18:12
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Have you read the paper you’re citing? The chart is from an early version, and the current, full version has different data. Either you didn’t read it, or didn’t understand it.

There’s a very important disclaimer in the first paragraph of the “Study sample” section, that reads:

The description of the education slice says: “The association between hesitancy and education level followed a U-shaped curve with the lowest hesitancy among those with a master’s degree, followed by those with a 4 year college degree, then a professional degree, and a doctorate. The highest hesitancy was among those with ≤high school education or some college (RR=1.89 [95%CI 1.84, 1.94] and 1.67 [95%CI 1.62, 1.71], respectively, versus a 4 year college degree). “

For full intellectual honesty, you should go over it at least.
The full version is here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...1260795v2.full
I looked at it a few (I think?) weeks ago and I rarely read papers word for word (I might have seen a previous version too). Abstract-conclusion-introduction-method-analysis is usually my reading order (if I see reasons to keep reading).

Your remark regarding sample is valid and well made, however this is not worse than the majority of the papers in the social sciences. Not all papers are as honest and upfront about declaring it though.

Not sure what you are trying to say with the piece about the description of the education slice? That phds seem to be slightly behind high school and some college? Could be that I misremembered that (or that they corrected it) but looking at the data does that make a huge difference to the point I was trying to make by referencing this paper?

PS: A larger attack I would have in this paper is the disclosure of CIs altogether. The crude nature of their data gathering process in my opinion precludes them from reporting exact numbers and should lead them to restrict their study to an explanatory one, calling for a subsuquent study to verify and expand on the results with a larger sample size and higher quality data gathering process.
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  #95  
Old 12.09.2021, 18:15
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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and what is a pass?

what is the minimum level it must fulfill?

how old can pcr and antibody tests be?

are foreign documents accepted?

will the barman tell me, i have to drink up quickly because my test expires in 10 minutes?
You don't need a covid pass to eat at outside terraces in Italy.

If you want to eat inside, you need green pass what they call it. It can be obtained via 1) vaccine 2) PCR test 3) covid recovered

As for particular details of implementation it's on best effort only, half of places don't even check it
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  #96  
Old 12.09.2021, 18:18
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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The overwhelming majority of those getting infected and ending up in hospital with Covid-19 now are unvaccinated. The unvaccinated are also more likely to suffer severe symptoms and end up in ICU.
i have heard this so often now. i want to see it written in red neon letters and mounted on the roof of the kremlin while Die Internationale booms from 10,000 young voices and Comrade Stalin marches at their head.

That would make it even truer. 10,000 times more true.
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  #97  
Old 12.09.2021, 18:26
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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i have heard this so often now. i want to see it written in red neon letters and mounted on the roof of the kremlin while Die Internationale booms from 10,000 young voices and Comrade Stalin marches at their head.

That would make it even truer. 10,000 times more true.
I have the appropriate poster for increased drama effect: (it says "Be vigilant")

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Old 12.09.2021, 18:29
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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It's too simplistic to divide people up into pro vax or anti vax.


There are 3 types of people who aren't vaccinated, as things currently stand, I would say.


  1. Those without the choice because of access barriers, who would like to receive the injection (who also have no choice about testing)
  2. Those who are against all injections lifelong
  3. Those who don't yet feel ready to receive the COVID injection based on how little is known about the in/significance of it in these early days, and are waiting for longer-term data and studies to inform their choice
there is a fourth category

- those who think the government and press have been acting like idiots and see not being vaccinated as a form of protest to bring the government back to their senses.

I don't believe in the need to get vaccinated, but i don't believe the bonkers stories about it either. So for me getting vaccinated would really be a zero gain and zero loss scenario. I would be prepared to get the shot if

1) the government starts being reasonable and stops all lockdown, mask mandates and exclusion of the unmasked and admits these measures were not proportional and issues an apology.
2) google and co apologize for the censorship and suppression and reinstate all material they have banned

this is a deal.
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Old 12.09.2021, 18:34
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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For anyone who hasn't seen them yet, here are the new rules on certificates. They are in force from Monday 13th September 2021.
"The extended certificate requirement is for a limited period until 24 January 2022. The Federal Council can also lift the measure earlier if the situation in hospitals eases."
https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...-id-85035.html
according to that website the fine for non compliance is 100chf which is cheaper than a pcr test.
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  #100  
Old 12.09.2021, 18:36
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

Limiting freedom can be seen in Texas for women wanting an abortion.

Either get the shot or live with the consequences. Moaning about it ain't gonna change the reality of tomorrow.
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