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  #141  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:26
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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My background is not social sciences, but I do have a minor in statistics. My biggest issue is methodological, as a survey off Facebook hardly qualifies for a paper, in my very personal opinion.

In any case, I think the claim that PhDs are more vaccine-hesitant than other groups is not correct.
You mean the claim that PhDs are more vaccine-hesitant than other groups is unproven. Namely claiming its incorrect also requires proof.

And you don't want to know how many peer-reviewed papers go right out the window if you don't consider this methodology paper worthy. I think the paper's fine (more data and studies is better) as long as it gets classified for what it is: an exploratory study with a questionable data gathering method and no statistical validity.
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  #142  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:27
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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I think the measures just announced are quite extreme. That said, the vaccination rate was tapering off at 50-52% with no significant uptake since the past few weeks. And the hospitalisation rates are showing a very high proportion of unvaccinated. I think the Govt decided to be very tough to get the rates up. Herd Immunitz typically requires vaccinations in excess of 80% (varies by bacteria/virus) and this is a very virulent virus which is mutating very quickly. I have lost friends and family members to Covid and some were quite young and it is heartbreaking. They would have taken the vaccine but it was not available so easily when they fell sick. If we can prevent more deaths or serious illnesses, then it is worth it. Even though the measures are quite tough.
Except that announcing no in person classes for uni students and the rest of the measures will NOT get the over 60 vaccinated more and they remain the issue! The government should shut them at home.until they get a vaccine and let all of us be!
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  #143  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:27
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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The title of this thread is a perfect example of a moan.
The first post sounded more like sarcasm to me.
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  #144  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:27
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Btw, on a lighter note, the fable about the frog being boiled slowly has no basis in reality...but the urban legend persists..... :-)
Yes I know but it's a way to make the point as all recognise it
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  #145  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:28
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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As I understand it, life will only be more difficult for the unvaccinated?
Yep but with some younger age groups who are hardly at risk and whose life will be made harder because the older population is not vaccinated.
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  #146  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:37
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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It's too simplistic to divide people up into pro vax or anti vax.


There are 3 types of people who aren't vaccinated, as things currently stand, I would say.


  1. Those without the choice because of access barriers, who would like to receive the injection (who also have no choice about testing)
  2. Those who are against all injections lifelong
  3. Those who don't yet feel ready to receive the COVID injection based on how little is known about the in/significance of it in these early days, and are waiting for longer-term data and studies to inform their choice
I have full sympathy for those who can't take it.
As for the folks in the 3rd group, the FDA announcement re. full approval of the Pfizer vaccine two weeks back means the is no concern now. Unless we decide not to believe in the FDA either. And as with all medications, there is constant monitoring and tracking of any approved medication for adverse effects. So I am not sure what is the issue per se.
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  #147  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:38
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Except that announcing no in person classes for uni students and the rest of the measures will NOT get the over 60 vaccinated more and they remain the issue! The government should shut them at home.until they get a vaccine and let all of us be!
I am over 60 and vaccinated. I ran into a neighbor yesterday who started talking about how she lived a healthy life and had no need to vaccinate and besides, bill gates and the chip.

I don‘t know this woman well, I think she is over 60but I don‘t know for sure. In the end all I can say is I hope you will remain healthy. I told her I believed the vax was effective, was happy I’d had mine. I said we each have to do what we think best. I‘m not confrontational….I can‘t get in her face and tell her to be vaxxed. It‘s difficult. I think this person is foolish and ill informed (bill gates and the chip).
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  #148  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:39
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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True. If these unvaccinated on the ICU survive, they will have a superb immune system.
Thank you. I was about to say the same thing. If you are lucky enough to survive, your immunity will be far in excess of those vaccinated....but the operative word here is "if"....the issue is not mere survival....even for people who are recovering, the long term effects are down right scary....I have seen lung scans of survivors and it is shocking how much damage the virus has done.....
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  #149  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:40
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

The long term clinical studies conclude in early 2023.

Until then, we have no idea what the side effects of this experimental injection are.

Once there is more conclusive evidence that it's safe, more people will take it.
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  #150  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:41
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Brief reminder :

1. Are there possible adverse event outcomes?
> 675,591 in VAERS database (through September 3rd, 2021) - https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html

2. Do the pharmaceutical companies have total indemnification from liability?
> Yes, Congressional “PREP ACT”

3. Is this a vaccine?
> No, mRNA messenger is lab synthetic genetic therapy

4. What additional chemicals are in the injection?
> Moderna SM-102 proprietary

5. Is the vaccine FDA approved?
> No, emergency approval only

6. Were drug interaction studies done?
> No

7. Were single dose toxicity studies done?
> No

8. Were toxicokinetic studies done?
> No

9. Were genotoxicity studies done?
> No

10. Were carcinogenicity studies done?
> No

11. Were pre/postnatal studies done?
> No

12. Is the mRNA injection effective?
> Mild reduction in symptoms

13. How long does it protect against Covid?
> Don’t know

14. Does it help people who contracted and survived Covid?
> Don’t know

15. Does it prevent transmission of Covid?
> Don’t know

16. Are there medical treatments for Covid?
> Yes: Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Vitamins D & C

17. What are Covid survival chances?
> 0-14: 99.9998%
> 15-44: 99.9931%
> 45-64: 99.9294%
> 65-85: 99.6297%
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pres...vid-19-vaccine
There are vaccines besides the mRNA ones also.....
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  #151  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:45
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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I have full sympathy for those who can't take it.
As for the folks in the 3rd group, the FDA announcement re. full approval of the Pfizer vaccine two weeks back means the is no concern now. Unless we decide not to believe in the FDA either. And as with all medications, there is constant monitoring and tracking of any approved medication for adverse effects. So I am not sure what is the issue per se.
Unfortunately doesn't help, for the reason I mentioned in my post - no longer term data nor studies, neither of which is changed by any announcement.
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  #152  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:52
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pres...vid-19-vaccine
There are vaccines besides the mRNA ones also.....
Which of these non-mRNA jabs is currently available in Switzerland?
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  #153  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:54
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

This thread needs to be merged with the main Corona thread. The same tired old false arguments and fake news are being reposted here.

Anyway, back on topic. A lot of fuss about nothing. All that's happening is the that unvaccinated are going into lockdown, and the non-vaccinated aren't.

Not quite in the spirit of "we're all in this together". There should be an exemption scheme for those with a valid medical reason not get vaccinated - perhaps just continue giving them free tests.
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  #154  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:55
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

Btw, I have an uncle who also did not buy the idea of this vaccine and took Covid very lightly. Then he got it. He was extremely healthy and thus thought he would recover quickly.

He went from being sick to being in the ICU to being on the high risk list within 96 hours. Almost in a blink of an eye.
It was touch and go for him. He was very lucky to survive.
I saw his lung scans post recovery. Worse than a chain smokers lungs.
He will have life long impact from his covid stint.

You can choose what you want to believe.
That is the point of personal freedom.

But when your choice creates a high probability that others can get infected because you choose to either not believe in the virus or the vaccine, then there is a challenge.

And when because of your choice, you can fall sick and the hospitals have to treat you and push other planned surgeries out because of the Covid overload, then it is an issue.
Because then your choice is no longer your personal choice.
It is negatively impacting those who don't have any say on your choice.

The same way you can choose not to vaccinate your child but then sending an invaccinated child into the school is putting other children at risk and thus no longer a private decision but a public one.

I have worked in the vaccines industry and I know the people who work on them. They are amongst the most dedicated, passionate and committed people I have seen. I have huge respect for the work they do at great personal cost.

Personally I see vaccines as miracle cures because these have allowed us to get rid of deadly diseases at meagre cost (the biggest problem in vaccines is that the world does not want to pay for them....I hope that changes now).

So this will be my last post on this discussion.

I have zero interest in convincing anyone of vaccine efficacy.

We are lucky that we live in a country where we get the best vaccines in the market at zero costs. Many other countries are very envious of us.

We are lucky to live in a time where we could create a vaccine within a very short time to combat Covid (trust me it is not easy and I can only imagine how much effort it would have taken).
This has allowed us the luxury of vaccine hesitancy.

Whether you believe in the efficacy of the vaccine is irrelevant.
If you have a better protective option than a vaccine, then use it.

Because, amazing as it may sound, the virus does not care for your belief system.
And it will not check whether you believe in the vaccine or not when it attacks you.

I hope you and your loved ones remain safe and healthy irrespective of which choice you exercise.
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Last edited by logo123; 12.09.2021 at 21:09.
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  #155  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:57
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

for while , i thought you will marry today and your wedding party will take place at
the castle of lenzburg.
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  #156  
Old 12.09.2021, 20:58
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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You'll have to expand on that. I don't quite understand what you mean.
You seem to be saying that the ban on abortion in Texas - that restriction on liberty - is morally equivalent to the restrictions on liberty caused by the covid certification requirement. But without giving any justification for the comparison.

I don't think they're morally equivalent, because the first is to do with endangering human life, and the second is to do with not being able to enjoy bars, restaurants, gyms, theatres etc. A bit of a pain for those unvaxxed who would like to participate, but hardly quite the threat to life.
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Old 12.09.2021, 21:01
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

So let me get this straight....


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The long term clinical studies conclude in early 2023.
Until then, we have no idea what the side effects of this experimental injection are.
Once there is more conclusive evidence that it's safe, more people will take it.

You are highly sceptical of PREVENTATIVE medicine that has undergone extensive research and development to gain approval specifically for COVID, and has proven to reduce ICU hospitalisations...



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16. Are there medical treatments for Covid?
> Yes: Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Vitamins D & C

Yet Ivermectin (veterinary de-wormer) and Hydroxychloroquine are REACTIVE treatments that have NOT been scientifically proven effective against COVID, in fact have been discouraged by medical authorities as likely to cause more harm than good. Only Facebook/Twitter have approved them.
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Old 12.09.2021, 21:02
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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We are lucky that we live in a country where we get the best vaccines in the market at zero costs. Many other countries are very envious of us.
Socializing something does not make it free.
Only the sun rises for free.
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Old 12.09.2021, 21:04
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

I very politely, for the second time, asked the little Swiss mouse about who those are who can't get vaccinated (for non medical reasons),
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I'd really like to know who's those are in category one. Won't you please share it with us?
But answer came there none. That makes me sad.

Hmm. No sad smiley. What a happy place this forum must be.
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Old 12.09.2021, 21:12
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Btw, I have an uncle who also did not buy the idea of this vaccine and took Covid very lightly. Then he got it. He was extremely healthy and thus thought he would recover quickly.

He went from being sick to being in the ICU to being on the high risk list within 96 hours. Almost in a blink of an eye.
It was touch and go for him. He was very lucky to survive.
I saw his lung scans post recovery. Worse than a chain smokers lungs.
He will have life long impact from his covid stint.

You can choose what you want to believe.
That is the point of personal freedom.

But when your choice creates a high probability that others can get infected because you choose to either not believe in the virus or the vaccine, then there is a challenge.

And when because of your choice, you can fall sick and the hospitals have to treat you and push other planned surgeries out because of the Covid overload, then it is an issue.
Because then your choice is no longer your personal choice.
It is negatively impacting those who don't have any say on your choice.

The same way you can choose not to vaccinate your child but then sending an invaccinated child into the school is putting other children at risk and thus no longer a private decision but a public one.

I have worked in the vaccines industry and I know the people who work on them. They are amongst the most dedicated, passionate and committed people I have seen. I have huge respect for the work they do at great personal cost.

Personally I see vaccines as miracle cures because these have allowed us to get rid of deadly diseases at meagre cost (the biggest problem in vaccines is that the world does not want to pay for them....I hope that changes now).

So this will be my last post on this discussion.

I have zero interest in convincing anyone of vaccine efficacy.

We are lucky that we live in a country where we get the best vaccines in the market at zero costs. Many other countries are very envious of us.

We are lucky to live in a time where we could create a vaccine within a very short time to combat Covid (trust me it is not easy and I can only imagine how much effort it would have taken).
This has allowed us the luxury of vaccine hesitancy.

Whether you believe in the efficacy of the vaccine is irrelevant.
If you have a better protective option than a vaccine, then use it.

Because, amazing as it may sound, the virus does not care for your belief system.
And it will not check whether you believe in the vaccine or not when it attacks you.

I hope you and your loved ones remain safe and healthy.
No way for us to comment on your uncle's health diagnosis unless you provide his medical history, we can see if there are comorbidities, lifestyle choices or
a weakened immune system playing a role.

Out of potentially let's say a million people worldwide working in vaccine production, how many do you know?

Lastly, really odd claim about those in vaccine production being so saintly. Vaccine production is much like any other job - some people will do their jobs poorly, some great, some will be negligent, some will be honourable, some will be watching the clock til they can retire, some will be sociopaths, some will be compassionate, some will steal from the office... Just like librarians, doctors, police, magistrates, cleaners, air stewardesses, entrepreneurs, teachers, blah blah blah.
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