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Old 12.09.2021, 21:13
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

And why people continue to make this comparison just boggles the mind... Why would I complain about a yearly flu vaccine that exists for those who CHOOSE to take it?
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Because I don't have to take it? I never have.

If coercion is attempted for taking the flu shot I'll react the same.
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  #162  
Old 12.09.2021, 21:16
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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You seem to be saying that the ban on abortion in Texas - that restriction on liberty - is morally equivalent to the restrictions on liberty caused by the covid certification requirement. But without giving any justification for the comparison.

I don't think they're morally equivalent, because the first is to do with endangering human life, and the second is to do with not being able to enjoy bars, restaurants, gyms, theatres etc. A bit of a pain for those unvaxxed who would like to participate, but hardly quite the threat to life.
Actually, my post was a sarcastic reaction to limiting freedoms. People still have a choice regarding vaccinations…. Unlike women in Texas who have lost their right to have an abortion.
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  #163  
Old 12.09.2021, 21:19
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Yes, there is. An ICU is far more likely to have resource limitations. You triage who is admitted. If the ICU has limited beds, you‘re going to admit those who have the best chance of survival. I suppose there are criteria likewise for the abortion clinic.

There are different criteria, however, you can‘t use the same yardstick to measure both.

I don‘t like the idea of coercion. But, I think about being cared for in hospital by someone who refused to get the vax, and I don‘t think I want them to care for me. I‘m very honestly unsure. This has a whiff of false equivalence about it to me.
The equivalence is entirely admissable.

In Texas the capacity of abortion clinics is being reduced to almost zero.

If a woman wants an abortion she is being told, you wouldn't have got pregnant in the first place if only you had listened to the advice of the health experts.

There is talking of refusing ICU capacity to unvaccinated.

If they disagree the government says, you wouldn't have got infected in the first place if only you had listened to the advice of the health experts.

So I would have thought that if you are fine with one policy you should be fine with the other.

Either the government should be able to mandate what you should do with your body or they should not.
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  #164  
Old 12.09.2021, 21:37
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pres...vid-19-vaccine
There are vaccines besides the mRNA ones also.....
Where does it say, it's new? Where does it say it's not RNA?
The Pfitzer-BioNTech went from EUA to approved. That's all I see here. And they changed it's name to make sure the confusion is being kept up. Seems to work as people think it's not a RNA.
What am I missing?

Not to mention that US FDA is not relevant for Switzerland.

<<Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty (koe-mir’-na-tee), for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older. >>
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So move your butt and look at it from the other side
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  #165  
Old 12.09.2021, 21:45
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

No I don‘t agree. These are not equivalent….it is not so black and white. I‘m not playing this ridiculous game.

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The equivalence is entirely admissable.

In Texas the capacity of abortion clinics is being reduced to almost zero.

If a woman wants an abortion she is being told, you wouldn't have got pregnant in the first place if only you had listened to the advice of the health experts.

There is talking of refusing ICU capacity to unvaccinated.

If they disagree the government says, you wouldn't have got infected in the first place if only you had listened to the advice of the health experts.

So I would have thought that if you are fine with one policy you should be fine with the other.

Either the government should be able to mandate what you should do with your body or they should not.
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  #166  
Old 12.09.2021, 21:46
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Either the government should be able to mandate what you should do with your body or they should not.
Someone who has had an abortion does not cause someone else to have an abortion.

Someone who is not vaccinated, on the other hand...

Tom
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  #167  
Old 12.09.2021, 21:46
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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I very politely, for the second time, asked the little Swiss mouse about who those are who can't get vaccinated (for non medical reasons),
But answer came there none. That makes me sad.

Hmm. No sad smiley. What a happy place this forum must be.
That's not true.

The ignore button has disadvantages, I guess.
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  #168  
Old 12.09.2021, 21:48
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Geneva and Thurgau ICUs are full at the moment and many other regions are at 80%. This has nothing to do with running a successful business... it's how to run a hospital that doesn't have enough staff to keep up with the amount of serious COVID cases coming in.
ICU's typically run at around 80% capacity, they have done so for years.
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  #169  
Old 12.09.2021, 21:52
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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ICU's typically run at around 80% capacity, they have done so for years.
According to https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/hosp-capacity/icu, some cantons are over 90%. Zurich is at 95%.

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 12.09.2021 at 22:04. Reason: correcting quote
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  #170  
Old 12.09.2021, 21:53
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Socializing something does not make it free.
Only the sun rises for free.
In Switzerland the tax payer pays. We could probably not afford to vaccinate all people, considering these endless shots.
So the social part is the non vaxxers, relinquishing their share to the really scared ones.



Oh how my groan-counter will rise now.
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  #171  
Old 12.09.2021, 21:59
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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You seem to be saying that the ban on abortion in Texas - that restriction on liberty - is morally equivalent to the restrictions on liberty caused by the covid certification requirement. But without giving any justification for the comparison.

I don't think they're morally equivalent, because the first is to do with endangering human life, and the second is to do with not being able to enjoy bars, restaurants, gyms, theatres etc. A bit of a pain for those unvaxxed who would like to participate, but hardly quite the threat to life.
The not vaxxed can always take a test and if negative will get a certificate that enables them to enjoy bars, restaurants, gyms, theatres, etc.
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  #172  
Old 12.09.2021, 22:05
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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According to https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/hosp-capacity/icu, some cantons are over 90%. Zurich is at 95%.
Survival rate is quite low with COVID in ICU so using triage won't make a huge difference on final outcome, as you treat the people most likely to survive.
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  #173  
Old 12.09.2021, 22:08
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Which of these non-mRNA jabs is currently available in Switzerland?
Johnson & Johnson ad26.cov2.s vaccines utilize an adenovirus vector, not mRNA.
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  #174  
Old 12.09.2021, 22:10
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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I have full sympathy for those who can't take it.
As for the folks in the 3rd group, the FDA announcement re. full approval of the Pfizer vaccine two weeks back means the is no concern now. Unless we decide not to believe in the FDA either. And as with all medications, there is constant monitoring and tracking of any approved medication for adverse effects. So I am not sure what is the issue per se.
Another very important category that is missing there is

Switzerland doesn't recognize half or maybe even more of this world's vaccines. And all those people who vaccinated elsewhere are barred from normal life from tomorrow.
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  #175  
Old 12.09.2021, 22:11
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Unfortunately doesn't help, for the reason I mentioned in my post - no longer term data nor studies, neither of which is changed by any announcement.
Your arbitrary and unilateral selection of "long term" has no scientific basis.
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  #176  
Old 12.09.2021, 22:12
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Another very important category that is missing there is

Switzerland doesn't recognize half or maybe even more of this world's vaccines. And all those people who vaccinated elsewhere are barred from normal life from tomorrow.
They can still take a test and if negative live a normal life.
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  #177  
Old 12.09.2021, 22:13
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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That's not true.

The ignore button has disadvantages, I guess.
But you're not on it (why would you be?). I knew about sans papier, but s/he's intimated that there are more. Maybe I'm on his/her ignore list!
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  #178  
Old 12.09.2021, 22:15
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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Survival rate is quite low with COVID in ICU so using triage won't make a huge difference on final outcome, as you treat the people most likely to survive.
So, if I follow your logic correctly, Covid patients should have low priority in triage situations because they’ll probably die anyway. Looking at the above link, it shows that approx 35% out of 57% of the ICU patients in Zurich have Covid. That means that the chances of you dying of Covid in Zürich is even higher because you will be chosen last in a triage situation.
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  #179  
Old 12.09.2021, 22:15
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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They can still take a test and if negative live a normal life.
What ? They are vaccinated.

Just because the western government refuses to accept Chinese or Indian vaccines, doesn't mean they are less effective.

The whole thing is such a shit show and people go crazy here when covid pass is being compared to the yellow badge.

It is exactly that
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  #180  
Old 12.09.2021, 22:16
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Re: Last Day Before Your Freedoms are Limited

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In Switzerland the tax payer pays. We could probably not afford to vaccinate all people, considering these endless shots.
So the social part is the non vaxxers, relinquishing their share to the really scared ones.



Oh how my groan-counter will rise now.
Very funny. Great satire!

Switzerland unable to afford 400 million francs a years. That's barely a rounding error.
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