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Old 30.09.2021, 17:10
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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But think why advice is for girls and women to learn self-defence. Why is it never for boys and men to learn not to do those things that are predatory or design to denigrate or humiliate?
Why is advice for weedy boy to lean self-defence, why is it never for bullies to learn not do those things...

Anyway, the vast majority of men have been taught these things - at least in this country. Most of us would never be in a position where a woman would need to defend herself.

Walking home at night, if a woman is walking in front of me, I cross the road. I certainly don't try to match her pace or overtake her. (I'm hesitant to go a different route in case there are bad people around ).
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  #22  
Old 30.09.2021, 17:28
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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I have a young daughter and have learned the sad fact is that even in 15 years time when she's at that going out sort of age, I will probably have to tell her that "yes, I know it isn't right and it isn't your fault but please be careful". Putting limits on her enjoyment so she's not taken advantage of is a horrible thought which I find galling, but unfortunately I believe will be her reality, even the generation after mine.
It is a dilemma. Mine is 17, I once saw an older guy watch her after I dropped her in Lucerne, stopped the car, filmed him (as he really looked suspicious), and then I asked him to get lost.
She refuses to do self-defence classes (I’m working on it)….

It is ironic though that self-defence training would not have helped Sarah. That reality is very difficult to take in.

Last edited by Hausamsee; 30.09.2021 at 19:38.
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  #23  
Old 30.09.2021, 17:48
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Sorry folks, temporary thread closure while I split the Swiss story from the UK story to avoid confusion between the two.

Back in a few minutes with two threads.

-------------------------------

Edit:
We're back open. This thread should continue discussing the Sarah Everard case, as it relates to women feeling safe in CH.

If you want to discuss the Swiss case mentioned by SusieQ and continued by Treverus, it's here:
https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-li...-alone-ch.html

I couldn't think of a great thread title for the new thread so it's kind of similar. If you have suggestions to make the distinction between the two clearer, please post on the other thread with a suggestion for a better title.

Thanks for your patience and feel free to delete any automated messages you receive as a result of the split.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 30.09.2021 at 18:05. Reason: back open
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  #24  
Old 30.09.2021, 18:09
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

I already said this in my private message to you, but I believe a comment on the Swiss case is relevant when OP asked about women's safety in Switzerland. A Swiss court victim blamed the girl who was raped, therefore I do not feel completely safe in this country when the courts rule in such a terrible way.

But OK, fair enough...
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Old 30.09.2021, 19:03
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

I do ask my daughter to pay attention to what she wears, her surroundings, how much alcohol she drinks, and the behaviour of others when she goes out in Geneva.

Of course no woman should ever have to trade freedom for her safety.

And, no women should have to be responsible for not being harassed.

However, without hesitation, I'll still do everything I can to help her reduce the risk of becoming someone else's prey.
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  #26  
Old 30.09.2021, 19:05
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

I also disagree quite strongly with the thread split the two things are absolutely related. What isn't related is the "well, she had it coming" rabbit hole that some people seem to want to go down. It is a fact that sentencing for sexual assault is ridiculously lenient in Switzerland and the law doesn't even recognise any other penetration than vaginal as rape. So, by law, a man can't be raped either. Ridiculous.

To split the two topics just because someone might get confused doesn't make much sense to me. I usually agree with mod decisions or don't really mind either way but this one is a mistake in my view.
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  #27  
Old 30.09.2021, 19:14
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Why is advice for weedy boy to lean self-defence, why is it never for bullies to learn not do those things...
One could make an argument that some bullies need to learn the hard way.

Both my daughters have taken Jujitsu and Judo classes for years.

It does more than being able to physically defend themselves, it builds mental resilience, improves self-assurance and makes some new friendships.
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  #28  
Old 30.09.2021, 19:14
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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She refuses to do self-defence classes (I’m working on it),
Try Chinese archery or blade fighting (swords and daggers). My daughters love it. Makes you very fit as well.
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  #29  
Old 30.09.2021, 19:16
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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What isn't related is the "well, she had it coming" rabbit hole that some people seem to want to go down.
Not only is it not related, it's also non-existent in this thread.
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  #30  
Old 30.09.2021, 19:20
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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So the admittedly guilty party will spend his entire life in goal?
Hockey goal, or soccer goal?

Tom
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  #31  
Old 30.09.2021, 19:32
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Hockey goal, or soccer goal?

Tom
Anywhere that balls are kicked.
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  #32  
Old 30.09.2021, 19:48
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Why is advice for weedy boy to lean self-defence, why is it never for bullies to learn not do those things...

Anyway, the vast majority of men have been taught these things - at least in this country. Most of us would never be in a position where a woman would need to defend herself.

).

Agreed on both counts. But it doesn't change my main point.
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  #33  
Old 30.09.2021, 20:00
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

I don't think it's the case that women are being asked to make all the changes, I see plenty messaging aimed at men to be aware of how their behaviour can cause discomfort. Though clearly more can be done.

I'm reminded of a pretty useful example a youtuber I follow used, while expressed as a joke it had a serious message. he was responding to someone complaining that they couldn't say anything to a woman these days or offence was taken.

He said
"Don't say anything to a women, if you would feel uncomfortable having it said to you,
by a man,
in prison."
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  #34  
Old 30.09.2021, 20:08
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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I don't understand why Uber or similar wouldn't create an app that (for a nominal fee?) would assist people who feel unsafe or who may just prefer to be assisted.

...

An easier and faster way is to suggest to Uber (they have Uber eats) but the safety of women is more important than a Pizza, something like Uber Safe?
Seriously? I can already see the headline "Uber security rapes and murders client. Company declines responsibility, refers to it only being a platform".
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  #35  
Old 30.09.2021, 20:12
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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I don't think it's the case that women are being asked to make all the changes, I see plenty messaging aimed at men to be aware of how their behaviour can cause discomfort. Though clearly more can be done.

I'm reminded of a pretty useful example a youtuber I follow used, while expressed as a joke it had a serious message. he was responding to someone complaining that they couldn't say anything to a woman these days or offence was taken.

He said
"Don't say anything to a women, if you would feel uncomfortable having it said to you,
by a man,
in prison."

That's going to dampen down proceedings very well, we need to lighten up a bit, accept jokes and move on rather than taking everything so seriously
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  #36  
Old 30.09.2021, 20:17
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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That's going to dampen down proceedings very well, we need to lighten up a bit, accept jokes and move on rather than taking everything so seriously
And there we have it. A desire for jokes and levity in a thread about women being attacked.

Good grief.
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  #37  
Old 01.10.2021, 07:24
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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That's going to dampen down proceedings very well, we need to lighten up a bit, accept jokes and move on rather than taking everything so seriously
I wasn't trying to inject humour here, just point out a clever use of humour to get a message across to a demographic that might not hear it otherwise.

I don't think theres anything here to lighten up about; this case is horrific, I can't stop thinking about her in the back of that car, going from pissed off at being arrested to concern they weren't going to a police station to full blown panic. And the calm methodical way he did it all chills me.
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Old 01.10.2021, 08:49
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Seriously? I can already see the headline "Uber security rapes and murders client. Company declines responsibility, refers to it only being a platform".
it has already happened. multiple times.

https://www.google.com/search?q=uber+rape&oq=uber+rape
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  #39  
Old 01.10.2021, 09:37
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

We've been living in Geneva for less than a year and my wife already suffered two episodes of harassment.

First episode: a hobo kind of guy yelling at her and following her to the ATM. The guy went away when a man (also at the ATM) told him to f... off. This all happened in midday and in a very busy corner of the city centre.

Second: a guy started asking questions to her at the tram stop. Then he took the same tram and kept questioning her insistently until she arrived to her destination. She tried to ignore him but he didn't desist.

It's nothing compared to what she has been through living in her home country but still, sickos are everywhere and it's very hard to deal with them.
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Old 01.10.2021, 09:57
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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That's going to dampen down proceedings very well, we need to lighten up a bit, accept jokes and move on rather than taking everything so seriously
Not sure about that at all. It’s probably a better idea if you were to ‘liberate’ your opinions with attempting to put yourself in a victims place rather than humourise something that really can’t be even in the most creative of ways. I write this thread in an attempt to change my perception of women (by listening to their opinions) as I feel I have been guilty in the past (not unlike most males actually) of certain types of sexism. We may never come even close to doing what this Couzens coward did but we all have room to improve ourselves. This contributes to the general consensus that it’s unacceptable for men to say and do whatever they want in the company of the opposite sex and try to understand their perspective rather than just show-off trying to impress and get them to find us attractive.
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