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  #41  
Old 01.10.2021, 10:07
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Agreed on both counts. But it doesn't change my main point.
The answer is the same on both counts.

We live in a non-ideal world. People need to take steps to protect themselves from nasty people. I don't think anyone would argue that it's fair. I don't think it will ever be eradicated, it does need to be resisted as much as possible.

The case of Sarah Everard as horrendous as it is, is thankfully, very very unusual. I'm not surprised at the whole life tariff. Any of us are utterly defenseless against a bonefide police office bogusly arresting us and taking us away. What are we supposed to do? Make a call to the station to verify that the arrest is genuine? The threats to women at night are of a rather different and more prevalent nature. Abductions themselves are very rare.
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  #42  
Old 01.10.2021, 13:51
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

i think switzerland is relatively safe, but everything is situational.

i once couldn't sleep and went for a walk at 4am. on a saturday morning when those that prey on drunk revellers were active. i put on headphones so i couldn't hear and a hoodie so that i couldn't see properly. then i took a shortcut down an little used alleyway off the main bars.

not surprisingly, someone tried to mug me and i only heard the footsteps running towards me at the very last second so that i just had time to jump forwards so that the punch glanced off my back and not my head.

looking back, i have to ask myself wtf i was thinking.

as safe as any place can be. nowhere is perfectly safe. and when there are few people around. when it is late/dark. when it is a friday/saturday with drunk people around, it gets more dangerous.

sensible precautions would include not walking around alone late at night.
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  #43  
Old 01.10.2021, 15:36
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

The Met also advised that if someone believes they are in "real and imminent danger" they "must seek assistance - shouting out to a passer-by, running into a house, knocking on a door, waving a bus down or if you are in the position to do so calling 999".

The mind boggles as The Met wants women to humiliate themselves in front of a bus full of people or...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-58749499

Basically puts the onus on women rather than male officers as up to 16 Police officers are investigated for Gross Misconduct on WhatsApp group. Unbelievable.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-wave-BUS.html
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  #44  
Old 01.10.2021, 15:45
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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looking back, i have to ask myself wtf i was thinking.

as safe as any place can be. nowhere is perfectly safe. and when there are few people around. when it is late/dark. when it is a friday/saturday with drunk people around, it gets more dangerous.

sensible precautions would include not walking around alone late at night.
Good advice. But I am sure it is way easier to follow it if you are a family man or woman and not a teenager, youth going out to parties etc.....
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Old 01.10.2021, 15:56
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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a teenager, youth going out to parties etc.....
surely they can go with friends?
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  #46  
Old 01.10.2021, 16:06
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Sorry folks, temporary thread closure while I split the Swiss story from the UK story to avoid confusion between the two.

Back in a few minutes with two threads.

-------------------------------

Edit:
We're back open. This thread should continue discussing the Sarah Everard case, as it relates to women feeling safe in CH.

If you want to discuss the Swiss case mentioned by SusieQ and continued by Treverus, it's here:
https://www.englishforum.ch/daily-li...-alone-ch.html

I couldn't think of a great thread title for the new thread so it's kind of similar. If you have suggestions to make the distinction between the two clearer, please post on the other thread with a suggestion for a better title.

Thanks for your patience and feel free to delete any automated messages you receive as a result of the split.
Hi 3Wishes

This thread appears more to focus on the recent case in the UK. The Topic was, however, how safe do women feel here in in Switzerland. Perhaps you could work around that?

Unfortunately, the „other“ thread - which would have been a really interesting thread for not only women, men, mothers, fathers, maybe even children that have come from countries where the number of rape cases are huge, and have hoped to find a „safer“ place here (Switzerland) - has already been been trashed by the usuals.

It is clearly a subject that people want to discuss - but in a sensitive, cohesive and intelligent way.

Perhaps another thread, or delete all abusive posts from the „other“ thread, (and as a consequence the NATURAL retorts which „these“, as a direct result, have generated).
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  #47  
Old 01.10.2021, 16:11
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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The Met also advised that if someone believes they are in "real and imminent danger" they "must seek assistance - shouting out to a passer-by, running into a house, knocking on a door, waving a bus down or if you are in the position to do so calling 999".

The mind boggles as The Met wants women to humiliate themselves in front of a bus full of people or...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-58749499

Basically puts the onus on women rather than male officers as up to 16 Police officers are investigated for Gross Misconduct on WhatsApp group. Unbelievable.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-wave-BUS.html



You would need to locate an f'ing bus before flagging it down !
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  #48  
Old 01.10.2021, 17:47
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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i think switzerland is relatively safe, but everything is situational.
Exactly.
I agree that Switzerland is relatively safe in comparison to places I've lived in the UK, but you still need to keep your wits about you.

I regularly go for a long walk in the evening, but if it's dark, I keep to well lit areas and don't take any of my regular short cuts or flights of steps between different street levels.

A couple of weeks ago, I was walking along the main road one Sunday evening and saw a middle aged guy behaving strangely. He parked up just off the main road, got a long object, about 18inches long, from his car, wrapped it in a cloth and carried it at one end which made me think it might be something with a handle. He was on the opposite side of the road to me and a maybe 10m ahead. He began walking a short distance behind a young woman who was talking on her phone via ear plugs. When she crossed the road, he crossed. When she crossed back again, he crossed again. This went on for about 2km until she went into a house. He turned around and walked back the way he came. I followed him at a little distance for about 3km in total because it was my chosen route for that evening's walk, but it struck me as peculiar that someone would be out walking that distance at 10pm on a Sunday night wearing flip flips and board shorts.

I told all this to my OH when I got home, and he thought it to be a bit dodgy too, but we both come from countries where we're used to the police being too busy to even take note of unusual behaviour, so didn't report it. In a way, I wish I had, but I don't know how the police here view such things.
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  #49  
Old 01.10.2021, 17:50
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Hi 3Wishes

This thread appears more to focus on the recent case in the UK. The Topic was, however, how safe do women feel here in in Switzerland. Perhaps you could work around that?
Hi ZR,

Thanks for your message here and in PM. Thread splits are rarely tidy and neat, unfortunately. I'll try to your queries here and on the other thread, so as to keep the topics sort-of separate.

The idea with the split - which hasn't exactly gone as I thought it would - was to keep the more general discussion about feeling safe in this thread. Also to continue discussion about the Everhard case here.

Ms Everhard was abducted and murdered by a police officer abusing his position. Would any of us imagine such a scenario in CH? Certainly not me. I know there are plainclothes officers everywhere in Switzerland. At the same time I'm pretty sure none are ever truly operating alone. A colleague is probably not far away.

If an "officer" approached me and wanted to arrest me for some supposed offense, I'm not sure how I'd react. Probably not that different from how Ms Everhard reacted. We're raised to do what the police tell us to do, right?

I feel safe walking alone at night in Bern and taking public transport when it is late. I've done it many times. The only issues I've ever had were with drunk people behaving like idiots. I never felt in danger. But Bern is not a huge city and it's rather sleepy compared to a buzzier place.

I lived in Denver for many years and also would go out to meet friends, etc. I never worried about walking alone in downtown Denver. I left my windows open at night in a ground floor flat, etc. Looking back one could probably say I was super duper naïve!
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  #50  
Old 01.10.2021, 18:22
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Hi ZR,

Thanks for your message here and in PM. Thread splits are rarely tidy and neat, unfortunately. I'll try to your queries here and on the other thread, so as to keep the topics sort-of separate.

The idea with the split - which hasn't exactly gone as I thought it would - was to keep the more general discussion about feeling safe in this thread. Also to continue discussion about the Everhard case here.

Ms Everhard was abducted and murdered by a police officer abusing his position. Would any of us imagine such a scenario in CH? Certainly not me. I know there are plainclothes officers everywhere in Switzerland. At the same time I'm pretty sure none are ever truly operating alone. A colleague is probably not far away.

If an "officer" approached me and wanted to arrest me for some supposed offense, I'm not sure how I'd react. Probably not that different from how Ms Everhard reacted. We're raised to do what the police tell us to do, right?

I feel safe walking alone at night in Bern and taking public transport when it is late. I've done it many times. The only issues I've ever had were with drunk people behaving like idiots. I never felt in danger. But Bern is not a huge city and it's rather sleepy compared to a buzzier place.

I lived in Denver for many years and also would go out to meet friends, etc. I never worried about walking alone in downtown Denver. I left my windows open at night in a ground floor flat, etc. Looking back one could probably say I was super duper naïve!
Well, it doesn‘t really answer my original question, but really value your comment. Wow, open windows in Denver ������. Spent quite a bit of my life in Texas, and agree with you that this may have been a bit näive!

If you have any questions regarding Swiss policing on this thread, then might be able to provide info as daughters partner of the last years is in the Swiss Police, and has quite a few stories to tell (most of which are never covered in the Swiss „media“).

Looking forward to see how the actual topic is moderated in the „other“ thread, that was the original, and discusses Switzerland (where I‘m guessing most of us live, and is the reason that we are on this forum at all).
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  #51  
Old 01.10.2021, 18:30
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Abductions themselves are very rare.
Unfortunately, that's not the case in the UK. There's been an incredibly steep climb in kidnapping over the last decade in the UK, with a slight drop in 2020/21 down to 5,720. Compare that to around 600 murders for the same time period. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-and-wales-uk/
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  #52  
Old 01.10.2021, 18:47
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

I feel a lot safer here than in the UK, I have had a few instances of harassment (e.g. bus driver refusing to take no for an answer when asking my details, I gave a fake phone number and got off the bus two stops after my home - no I didn’t report it), but I had worse in the UK.

I feel OK about my teen walking alone after dark, which I also wouldn’t back home. As some may recall, she was harassed when she was 6 by an 8 year old in hort, which sticks with me, but I feel that it was taken very seriously and the boy dealt with in an appropriate manner. She did not seem to see the sexual aspect of it either.

My fiance had a shock to his system once, he saw two of his female friends on an outside table and, as a joke, tickled the one with her back to him’s hair, expected to be thumped or her to turn round and shout at him, but she just froze and did nothing. It’s when he realised, women are programmed not to react, not to escalate, just ignore it and hope it goes away, because, lets face it, we know what can happen when we tell a creep to ‘go forth and fornicate’. At that point he knew, what might be just a bit of fun to a men, can be very scary to a woman.

Believe us when we say #metoo. I, luckily, have never been raped, but stalked, harassed, assaulted, pressured into things I didn’t want to do, cat called (from the age of 12), etc…. That is, sadly, just a normal part of life for us.

But, to the point, I do feel, if I was attacked here, strangers would come to my aid. And I trust the police, to be fair, I never see them fewer than a pair, which goes some way to help.
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  #53  
Old 01.10.2021, 19:07
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

I also feel very well here since 1986, especially compared to growing-up in a London Borough (Bromley) beforehand.

Now, I see the children going to school unaccompanied each morning, and I can come home on the last Zurich tram with a common sense to the occasional yob you might find. But, since 1986, I have NEVER been given either verbal, nor physical abuse here in Switzerland.

And, before you trolls start on me, I was quite a catch. Zurich (and I’ve travelled many European and US countries in the past years) is the only city in which I have never received a cat-call. Well, those days are thankfully anyway long-gone, but I did believe that Switzerland is really safe for females - at least I feel that way. Still always walk home with my key between my fingers though.

So, I was really surprised to read this from Amnesty International:

Switzerland: One in five women is a victim of sexual violence

Sexually violence is much more widespread in Switzerland than commonly thought, with women and girls being failed by dangerous and outdated laws, a new survey commissioned by Amnesty International has revealed.
According to the research involving interviews with 4,495 women and girls aged 16 and over, one in five women surveyed has been subjected to sexual violence, and more than 10 percent of women surveyed had been raped. Only 8 percent of women surveyed reported the assault to the police.
This survey not only reveals staggeringly high levels of rape and sexual violence against women but also shockingly low levels of reporting
Manon Schick, Amnesty Switzerland
“This survey not only reveals staggeringly high levels of rape and sexual violence against women but also shockingly low levels of reporting,” said Manon Schick, Managing Director of Amnesty Switzerland.
“These findings should be a wake-up call for the authorities in Switzerland and spur the urgent reform of Switzerland’s antiquated rape laws.”
BACKGROUND
Under the Istanbul Convention, ratified by Switzerland in 2017, rape and all other non-consensual acts of a sexual nature must be classified as criminal offences. However, Swiss law still does not define rape on the basis of lack of consent. Instead, it uses a definition based on whether physical violence, threat or coercion is involved.
The assumption in law or in practice that a victim gives their consent because they have not physically resisted is deeply problematic since “involuntary paralysis” or “freezing” has been recognized by experts as a very common physiological and psychological response to sexual assault.
Swiss law still does not define rape on the basis of lack of consent. Instead, it uses a definition based on whether physical violence, threat or coercion is involved
Manon Schick, Amnesty Switzerland
This focus on resistance and violence rather than on consent has an impact not only on the reporting of rape but also on wider awareness of sexual violence, both of which are key aspects in preventing rape and tackling impunity.
Amnesty has analysed rape legislation in 31 countries in Europe and found that only 8 out of 31 countries have consent-based legislation in place. These are Sweden, the UK, Ireland, Luxembourg, Germany, Cyprus, Iceland and Belgium.
In the other European countries, for the crime to be considered rape, the law requires for example the use of force or threats, but this is not what happens in a great majority of rape cases.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/pr...xual-violence/
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  #54  
Old 01.10.2021, 20:09
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Sexually violence is much more widespread in Switzerland than commonly thought, with women and girls being failed by dangerous and outdated laws, a new survey commissioned by Amnesty International has revealed.
According to the research involving interviews with 4,495 women and girls aged 16 and over, one in five women surveyed has been subjected to sexual violence, and more than 10 percent of women surveyed had been raped. Only 8 percent of women surveyed reported the assault to the police.
This survey not only reveals staggeringly high levels of rape and sexual violence against women but also shockingly low levels of reporting
I don't know what game the Swiss authorities/media think they are playing but the low levels of reporting are the sad truth.

Same goes for youth suicides.

I don't know anyone in the U.K. who has been raped or committed suicide at a young age but here (and I know a lot less people here than in the U.K.) I know of suicides, rape of females and brutal gang rape of a male school friend who lived here.

Just because it doesn't get reported here - doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
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Old 01.10.2021, 21:34
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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I don't know anyone in the U.K. who has been raped or committed suicide at a young age but here (and I know a lot less people here than in the U.K.) I know of suicides, rape of females and brutal gang rape of a male school friend who lived here.

Just because it doesn't get reported here - doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I'm sorry to hear this.

Under-reporting is a massive issue.
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Old 01.10.2021, 21:38
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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The Met also advised that if someone believes they are in "real and imminent danger" they "must seek assistance - shouting out to a passer-by, running into a house, knocking on a door, waving a bus down or if you are in the position to do so calling 999".

The mind boggles as The Met wants women to humiliate themselves in front of a bus full of people or...

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-58749499

Basically puts the onus on women rather than male officers as up to 16 Police officers are investigated for Gross Misconduct on WhatsApp group. Unbelievable.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-wave-BUS.html

The met advice has had quite a lot of social media flak - knocking on a stranger's door isn't ideal.

Advice seems to have shifted to what to do if approached by a lone male with a warrant card or an unmarked vehicle flashing blue lights.

The police have a lot of internal things to sort I think, not least that calling a colleague "The Rapist " in jest should have been a red flag for everyone.
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Old 01.10.2021, 21:44
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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The met advice has had quite a lot of social media flak - knocking on a stranger's door isn't ideal.

Advice seems to have shifted to what to do if approached by a lone male woth a warrant card or an unmarked vehicle flashing blue lights.

The police have a lot of internal things to sort I think, not least that calling a colleague "The Rapist " in jest should have been a red flag for everyone.
This is again UK - would be great if we could stick to Switzerland - which is as bad / far worse, believe me.
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Old 01.10.2021, 21:52
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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I don't know what game the Swiss authorities/media think they are playing but the low levels of reporting are the sad truth.
I have zero proof, but I suspect it's similar to all the train suicides. If we don't report it, no one knows it happens. It's all good here. Or something like that.

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The police have a lot of internal things to sort I think, not least that calling a colleague "The Rapist " in jest should have been a red flag for everyone.
This is mind boggling. And sad.
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Old 01.10.2021, 21:59
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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I have zero proof, but I suspect it's similar to all the train suicides. If we don't report it, no one knows it happens. It's all good here. Or something like that.



This is mind boggling. And sad.
Isn't it. Apparently the locker room "banter" about him was in that vein and no-one challenged it. No-one. That's the root behaviour (or one of them) that needs sorting. Too much is dismissed by "oh he didn't mean it" or "it was only a joke" or "don't be so sensitive."

I just keep thinking about her mum. How do you function after this? I hope he has a long hellish time in prison.
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Old 01.10.2021, 22:24
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Isn't it. Apparently the locker room "banter" about him was in that vein and no-one challenged it. No-one. That's the root behaviour (or one of them) that needs sorting. Too much is dismissed by "oh he didn't mean it" or "it was only a joke" or "don't be so sensitive."

I just keep thinking about her mum. How do you function after this? I hope he has a long hellish time in prison.
Agreee. And thank you for showing us how we should describe our frustration in future without getting a *post banned“ the next day.
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