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Old 30.09.2021, 12:19
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How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Do you feel safe?

What do women here on EF think especially, though men's views are also important, about the Sarah Everard case?

Are you worried that this kind of attack could happen in Switzerland?

Do you feel safe walking alone at night?

Has anyone any experience of being coerced, approached, or even followed by a predator when out and about?

I don't understand why Uber or similar wouldn't create an app that (for a nominal fee?) would assist people who feel unsafe or who may just prefer to be assisted.

I have a daughter who regularly goes out at night but to be honest, I do sometimes worry about her, even here in Switzerland. I think it would be useful for the LGTBQ+ community too, as I have heard of attacks against them here.

An easier and faster way is to suggest to Uber (they have Uber eats) but the safety of women is more important than a Pizza, something like Uber Safe?

I know though this Police Employee used his Police knowledge and experience in such a despicable way there's no comparison (life is no punishment for this coward).

I have so much sympathy for her family and other victims' families of these heinous crimes. Her parents, we can't imagine what they are going through.
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Old 30.09.2021, 12:32
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Since moving to Switzerland, I receive far less cat calling / daily harassment in comparison to other places I've visited or lived ... but there are sickos everywhere and I've either been a victim of or had friends who have experienced them here.

The most frightening occasion happened to me in my early days in Basel. It was around 2:00 AM & my friend and I were near Claraplatz waiting for the tram. A rather disturbing homeless appearing man was circling around us while my friend and I looked at the timetable. I lived at the time on the outskirts of town close to Binningen on a rather small street ... the homeless man walked up and said "I know you live on .... strasse as I've followed you before, so this is the tram number you should take". I'm a highly aware person, and the fact that I had never seen this man following me did shake me to my core. (I have experienced being followed in the past and was always able to evade pursuit.) From that day on, anytime I left my home, I was concerned he would be there.

My biggest advice to women here who blindly think they are safe in this country, you are not - you are not safe anywhere. And kindly note that many things are not reported in the news here. Additionally, men even get off of rape charges in Swiss courts because if you kissed a man in a bar, it gave another man permission to rape you.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 30.09.2021 at 18:50. Reason: removed text that was split to other thread
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Old 30.09.2021, 12:58
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Do you feel safe?

What do women here on EF think especially, though men's views are also important, about the Sarah Everard case?

Are you worried that this kind of attack could happen in Switzerland?

Do you feel safe walking alone at night?

Has anyone any experience of being coerced, approached, or even followed by a predator when out and about?

...

I nevet felt unsafe as such in CH but then due to having a small child i was rarely out alone after dark. My OH is a big bloke. If I did take a walk in the dark without him I had a 34 kilo lab with me.

But yes. I've experienced coercion, been approached or followed in pretty much every place I've lived. Public transport can be heinous.

Girls, women, we learn appallingly quickly to trust our instincts and we never leave a friend alone. I'm betting groups of male friends don't text each other to say they got home safely? Pre mobile phones I'll bet they didn't ring a landline, let it ring out three times before hangjng up. Home safely.


Susie Q is correct, sick bastards are everywhere. Blokes who either enjoy the transgressive approach or simply do not understand how frightening it can be.

My husband's best friend has two sons. The eldest, 14, fell for a girl in his class last year and asked her out. She said no. He told his dad who, though sympathetic, asked him what that meant he should do now.

"Ask her again."

"No, respect her answer and leave her be."


We're cat called when walking down the street. We're yellled at for being a bitch if we don't respond. We're told to smile. We have unwanted, uninvited hands put on us on public transport (standing on a packed commuter train is potentially very unpleasant) and yet we are told to be meek, understanding, agreeable, willing...

And deemed aggressive if we ever, in any way, stand up for ourselves, call out poor behaviour. Say no. Do not speak to me like that. Don't behave like that.


And no, this is not victim culture. The answer isn't "but not all men" or "I have never...".

Those things are undoubtedly true but while enough men behave this way, if even one man behaves this way, it is too much.


There has to be a wholesale acceptance that what women are saying is true. That we are harassed etc. To not even acknowledge that it happens is damage and naive.

There will be the inevitable "but what about false accusations etc" which is important but needs to be separate. If we dismiss what most women and girls over the age of 12 are saying as untrue because of a small minority we do more harm than good.

It's why the defence of women-only spaces is so vigorous. The right to choose the sex of our medical professional. Our right, everyone's right, to say who may and may not touch us.


I'm raising two girls. Sometimes this world bothers me more than I like to admit.
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Old 30.09.2021, 13:16
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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I nevet felt unsafe as such in CH but then due to having a small child i was rarely out alone after dark. My OH is a big bloke. If I did take a walk in the dark without him I had a 34 kilo lab with me.

But yes. I've experienced coercion, been approached or followed in pretty much every place I've lived. Public transport can be heinous.
Kind of they let you be when you're with a child or more. Or a male.
Catcalling is usually harmless but very annoying. Doesn't happen too often here.

Sick predators or pervs are everywhere, never felt completely safe at night anywhere. I wonder if males do.
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Old 30.09.2021, 13:18
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Coming back to the OPs post...

Yes I feel safe. Always have.
If you have a daughter and are worried about her make sure she attends a Selbstverteidigungskurs. There are several if you search for it and ad Luzern (in your case). Another option is Judo. Make her attend with some friends.

I did both and used to be a scout so was never afraid of the dark, also in the forrest.

In my opinion it's also important not to show fear. If you look scared, someone out looking for a victim will likely follow an "easy prey".
That does not mean behave reckless. And to trust gut instict.
There are bad people everywhere but most attacks don't happen from a stranger. Even if the media coverage makes you think so.
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Old 30.09.2021, 13:24
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Back to original topic, crazy predators keep a low profile. It's mentioned in the article how could the guy work as policeman and nothing was ever detected. Probably an exemplary citizen and police officer. It induces a bit of existential dread that the victim was apparently randomly chosen on the street. I think the local version of these rather infrequent events are the "family-tragedies" or murder-suicides. All model citizens going crazy one day.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 30.09.2021 at 18:55. Reason: Moved quote to new thread
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Old 30.09.2021, 13:41
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

I feel perfectly safe. Mind you, I'm taller (and probably have broader shoulders) than at least half of the male population and have a honey badger mindset when it comes to fighting. So that means I am thinking of the possibility while out and about, however, I have a sort of "if anyone tries anything on I will freaking END them" aura about me that has had dudes start sauntering over to chat me up and swiftly change directions when they were close enough to see the look I was giving them. What worries me is the increasing tendency for people to carry knives, that didn't use to be the case and I'm not foolish enough to think that I could win a knife fight.

Obviously, I would not walk in the forest or other rarely frequented areas at night, but that is not so much because I'm a woman, more a case of "I don't want to get mugged or become prey to the sort of person who hangs around the forest at night". Sure, there have been unwanted approaches, inappropriate cat calls, even cases of being groped or briefly followed - once all the way to my front door - apparently, being helpful to a stranger who asks you a question means you want to shag him. But those experiences in no way compare to those that unfortunately happened in a private setting and were not traumatising, they just made me angry. Especially that one time when a woman actually shushed me and told me not to make such a fuss when I yelled at a dude who groped me on the bus to work.

Honestly, we really need to be clear about an undeniable fact: in at least 80% of assault or femicide cases, the attacker knew the victim before the attack. Statistically, a woman is less safe in her own home than she is walking on the street at night.

This is probably less the case for those who belong to the LGBTQ+, at least once they have left potentially intolerant parents. Unfortunately, some people (well, it's mostly men, let's be real) have very strong feelings about people that they cannot control, who call into question gender roles or are outright not interested in them/they are secretly scared of. So I would be a bit more careful if I were, for example, going to a well-known LGBTQ+ meeting place or event.

I don't know what can be done to stop these things happening, after all, we are also seeing a rise in seemingly random violent attacks on men (mostly by other men), it's worrying. What we could do now and need to keep reminding the media to do is to stop with the victim-focused language. Sarah did not "get raped and murdered"; Wayne Couzens raped and murdered Sarah. By making it sound like the victim is a passive participant, it becomes an act that happened to her, rather than stating that the attacker chose to do this. Much of the narrative around such acts revolves around "letting it happen", why don't we say "making a choice to attack"?

Why do we keep giving advice to women on how they should modify their behaviour to stay safe or digging into a woman's upbringing or past love life to explain what made her into a victim? Should we not, instead, focus on why friends and colleagues did not bother to report on Wayne Couzens, despite him literally being known as "The Rapist"? Or how about we immediately call out boys who start repeating misogynist nonsense instead of reinforcing it with an awkward laugh or even a good old "boys will be boys" backslap?

Sure, you may be a very decent dude who respects women and that is cool. The bar is on the floor but you are doing better and we love to see it. But you may not be doing quite as well as you think. Statistically, if you know a reasonable number of people, at least one of your male friends or colleages has sexually harassed or even assaulted a woman (or a man). What if he happens to be that dude who makes the sexist jokes that you happily laugh at and never check him on? How would you feel? I have yet to find numbers on what percentage of men are sex offenders, which is understandable, since only about 10 - 20% of cases are ever reported, making it near impossible to produce a reliable estimate.

However, we do know how many women are assaulted, depending on what you class as assault, it's between 20 and 25%. It's easier to document women who were assaulted, even if they didn't go to the police; between therapy sessions and anonymous questionnaires, we get a very good idea of the scale. More importantly, a woman usually knows when she has been assaulted, while many men will argue till the cows come home that "grabbing someone's ass as a joke" is not, in fact, assault. So they would check "No" in an anonymous questionnaire asking them whether they have ever touched someone without their consent. Add to that the human tendency to lie on questionnaires in order to make yourself look good and we really have no idea of the scale of the problem...

So, sure, most men are perfectly decent, even awesome, human beings whom I would happily trust with my drink. It must be tiring for them to hear women bang on about this topic again and again. Unfortunately, I have witnessed these same "good guys" laugh when "that guy" at the table makes a rape joke and then tell ME "come on, it's just a joke" when I call him out on it. The correct response is to agree with the person who is raising the bar, not to put them down and validate the douchebag. If you want the narrative to change, you have to put in the work. Be more like Daniel Sloss - watch the clip, have a think about it, he makes excellent points.

Last edited by Kittster; 30.09.2021 at 13:52.
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Old 30.09.2021, 13:43
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Kind of they let you be when you're with a child or more. Or a male.
Catcalling is usually harmless but very annoying. Doesn't happen too often here.

Sick predators or pervs are everywhere, never felt completely safe at night anywhere. I wonder if males do.
I felt safe.

Once I shouted to a couple (woman and man) in the local tram that were bullying another woman. My German was even worse at the time so I just shouted stop, got their attention, they shouted incomprehensible things to me but anyway calmed down after 1min. A year or so later, saw the same couple from the tram initiate a fist fight in our local Migros with another couple where the woman was pregnant. Some months later the police shoot the guy down because he was charging against them with a knife. https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/mittell...d16198687.html

I felt a lot of fear when I remember I challenged this guy once in the tram. I thought he was just another idiot who calms down once he gets the attention of other passengers in the tram but he was a true sick puppy. Or just another person that enters into an accelerated mental health decay process. So, not so sure about challenging violent people in the tram once again after seeing how this story unfolded and ended.
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Old 30.09.2021, 13:50
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Why do we keep giving advice to women on how they should modify their behaviour to stay safe or digging into a woman's upbringing or past love life to explain what made her into a victim? Should we not, instead, focus on why friends and colleagues did not bother to report on Wayne Couzens, despite him literally being known as "The Rapist"? Or how about we immediately call out boys who start repeating misogynist nonsense instead of reinforcing it with an awkward laugh or even a good old "boys will be boys" backslap?
Quote:
Couzens, a father-of-two pleaded guilty to Ms Everard’s murder on Friday.

His wife, Elena Couzens, has said what her husband did “was not human” but she failed to spot “any signs” that he was capable of committing such heinous crimes.
Colleagues failed, wife failed. I think it's reasonable to accept it's sometimes impossible to prevent the 1st murder. All can be done is to stop the murderer from becoming a serial one.
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Old 30.09.2021, 14:05
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Colleagues failed, wife failed. I think it's reasonable to accept it's sometimes impossible to prevent the 1st murder. All can be done is to stop the murderer from becoming a serial one.
How was he allowed to be a police officer despite his previous behaviour? He was given a position of authority that he had no business having. So, no, I don't think it's reasonable to accept any of what led to this tragedy. That is also my point, if you let people spiral into a world of misogynistic thoughts and behaviour being ok and without consequences, you contributed to that person's choices.

The problem is that people will do their damnedest to avoid any kind of discomfort. Conversations about these topics are hard and uncomfortable. Pin pointing the problem can be challenging - how do you quantify when a look is too long and too intense to be ok? Because it kind of starts there, that dude at work who practically undresses every female who enters the room. His male colleagues might not even notice but for the women on the team there is usually that gut feeling of discomfort whenever you interact with him. A guy I was seeing (very briefly) once told me about how he would masturbate in the toilets at work and fantasise about the colleague he just had a meeting with. And that he would fantasise about "teaching her some manners" if she had somehow bested him in the meeting. I mean, sure, we are irrational beings when it comes to our desires but that is just... worrying.

It's one thing to lust over an attractive colleague, but this guy's behaviour is just...
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Old 30.09.2021, 14:08
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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How was he allowed to be a police officer despite his previous behaviour?
No vetting process will always catch the bad apples. It's always easy to spot them in hindsight.
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Old 30.09.2021, 14:22
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

I can honestly say that I have never felt unsafe here when our alone at night but it’s not something I’ve done very often and I have always been in places where there are other people around.

Having lived as a young woman in Yorkshire during the time of the Yorkshire Ripper I learned what to do to be as safe as possible when out alone after dark. Nothing is foolproof however as cases like that of Sarah Everard show.

I’ve experienced my fair share of catcalls, wolf whistles and harassment over the years but nothing that I haven’t been able to handle.

The most unsafe I have ever felt as a woman out alone was in Lyon in France in the middle of the day when I was harassed and followed by a young white French man. That was quite scary at the time.
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Old 30.09.2021, 14:27
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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How was he allowed to be a police officer despite his previous behaviour? He was given a position of authority that he had no business having. So, no, I don't think it's reasonable to accept any of what led to this tragedy. That is also my point, if you let people spiral into a world of misogynistic thoughts and behaviour being ok and without consequences, you contributed to that person's choices.

The problem is that people will do their damnedest to avoid any kind of discomfort. Conversations about these topics are hard and uncomfortable. Pin pointing the problem can be challenging - how do you quantify when a look is too long and too intense to be ok? Because it kind of starts there, that dude at work who practically undresses every female who enters the room. His male colleagues might not even notice but for the women on the team there is usually that gut feeling of discomfort whenever you interact with him. A guy I was seeing (very briefly) once told me about how he would masturbate in the toilets at work and fantasise about the colleague he just had a meeting with. And that he would fantasise about "teaching her some manners" if she had somehow bested him in the meeting. I mean, sure, we are irrational beings when it comes to our desires but that is just... worrying.

It's one thing to lust over an attractive colleague, but this guy's behaviour is just...
Children and teenagers are indeed vulnerable to reinforcing themselves to do impulsive acts. For teenagers misogynism is a delicate issue because they can do something stupid the very next minute fueled by the feeling of being supported by the group.

Older adults that carefully plan and execute violent acts that take several hours is different. I don't remember the last time I felt supported by someone laughing at a stupid thing I said. No one reinforces my thoughts. If any, as we age we feel lonelier.

Even if some police filter would have caught him, the headline would change to volunteer-fireman murders woman or unemployed local man murders woman. Considering the age of the murderer, I wouldn't be surprised some mental illness. Maybe the things that will fail in our heads if we're lucky to reach 90 YO failed in this guy at 48, when he still had a lot of capacity to harm others.
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Old 30.09.2021, 14:41
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Coming back to the OPs post...


In my opinion it's also important not to show fear. If you look scared, someone out looking for a victim will likely follow an "easy prey".
That in itself says a lot
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Old 30.09.2021, 14:42
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Danger can happen anywhere but in terms of general sense of safety, I have never felt safer anywhere on the planet and that goes for our children as well

I'd add that the police even as a Caucasian never made me comfortable in the US but I have never felt that stress or tension around the police here carrying weapons despite firearms, in general, making me uncomfortable. I have a good friend/colleague who is a black muslim who says he never encounters any tension. I have a neighbor with a gay son and my wife who has lesbian & gay childhood friends who appear to have very little societal friction similar to what I have seen elsewhere (esp. in US).

I have a young daughter that obviously you can worry about more due to how objectified women can be but I have to say it does not appear to me that this is worse than anywhere else I have ever been to or lived - I worry more for her to not have to contend with sexism, gender pay inequality or being mistreated by whomever she may one day date/marry. Of all the things I might worry for her, being killed by a lunatic cop is not high on that list

Last edited by FCBarca; 30.09.2021 at 16:49.
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Old 30.09.2021, 14:54
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Great news, a whole life sentence..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ily-trial.html

And news on Sabina Nessa
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Old 30.09.2021, 16:31
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Kind of they let you be when you're with a child or more. Or a male.
Catcalling is usually harmless but very annoying. Doesn't happen too often here.

Sick predators or pervs are everywhere, never felt completely safe at night anywhere. I wonder if males do.

Sure is mostly just harmless but when you're 12, 14, 16 and they are grown men?

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Coming back to the OPs post...

Yes I feel safe. Always have.
If you have a daughter and are worried about her make sure she attends a Selbstverteidigungskurs. There are several if you search for it and ad Luzern (in your case). Another option is Judo. Make her attend with some friends.

I did both and used to be a scout so was never afraid of the dark, also in the forrest.

In my opinion it's also important not to show fear. If you look scared, someone out looking for a victim will likely follow an "easy prey".
That does not mean behave reckless. And to trust gut instict.
There are bad people everywhere but most attacks don't happen from a stranger. Even if the media coverage makes you think so.

I get this, I do. But think why advice is for girls and women to learn self-defence. Why is it never for boys and men to learn not to do those things that are predatory or design to denigrate or humiliate?

It saddens me that you seem to think looking fierce is the answer.

I'm not judging, no doubt some will think I am. My girls will attend classes. It just houldn't be on girls and women to make the changes.

Last edited by RufusB; 30.09.2021 at 20:46. Reason: Auto correct changed word
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  #18  
Old 30.09.2021, 16:55
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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It saddens me that you seem to think looking fierce is the answer.
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I'm just wondering how one can just start looking fierce?

I mean I can be fierce when needed, but am defo not looking "fierce" at all.
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Old 30.09.2021, 16:59
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

I felt relatively safe here until Monday night, when I got off the bus and nearly walked straight into a man who had just pulled a knife on someone

I definitely feel safer here in Basel than I did in Glasgow. In fact, knowing Glasgow's reputation, I took up Krav Maga when I moved there. Having those skills made me feel a little better, but I still hope I would never have to use them.
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Old 30.09.2021, 17:41
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

So the admittedly guilty party will spend his entire life in goal? Better to give him a pistol with a single bullet. If he demurs repeat every year.

I am not in favour of capital punishment, even for the most heinous of crimes. But I support assisted suicide.
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