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  #21  
Old 30.09.2021, 20:09
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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I think I’ll need to need to bow out on this one and let a woman explain why you have some horrific attitudes going on there.

The idea that drinking or wearing short clothes makes you RESPONSIBLE for getting raped is really abhorrent.


I'm bowing out too. I've tried to explain but... jesus.

One of the first things, the very first things, we learn as we grow is that we are not responsible for the actions of others. Thinking otherwise is how coercive abusive relationships happen.."look what you made me do" etc etc. Utter BS.

Vile.
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  #22  
Old 30.09.2021, 20:09
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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If it's not consensual it's rape. Not sex.

Sometimes consent is given and then the morning after rescinded.....


Whilst i don't have much sympathy for footballers, i do feel they have a tough time as it's consensual during the evening, guzzling champagne in the VIP area whilst being fawned over by somebody rich and possibly famous but in the morning is not consensual as the girl in question has decided she doesn't like whatever and senses she can either ruin the guy or blackmail him.


I feel there is quite a lot of evening consent and morning remorse that occurs.
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  #23  
Old 30.09.2021, 20:14
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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Sometimes consent is given and then the morning after rescinded.....


Whilst i don't have much sympathy for footballers, i do feel they have a tough time as it's consensual during the evening, guzzling champagne in the VIP area whilst being fawned over by somebody rich and possibly famous but in the morning is not consensual as the girl in question has decided she doesn't like whatever and senses she can either ruin the guy or blackmail him.


I feel there is quite a lot of evening consent and morning remorse that occurs.


No.


Sounds like a word you need to memorise.

No.

Also learn coercion.

No.
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  #24  
Old 30.09.2021, 20:28
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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This is very close to victim blaming.
I disagree. Stop trying to define the rules.
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Most women dress to please themselves and their friends. I'm sure most if us have been out with cleavage and a bit of leg on show. But that's it. A show. A costume. An appearance. A choice. It's not an invitation to touch or to follow or to verbally abuse.

Attracting an admiring gaze or two is one thing but it stops there. Should women cover themselves neck to toe because some people in society can't restrain themselves?
You're sending a stream of sexual signals with that. Experience should have told you by now that you don't get to decide whether every "recipient" respects the limits.
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This thread split doesn't make much sense btw. It's a complex subject. Shouldn't be, but it is.
Agreed.
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  #25  
Old 30.09.2021, 20:40
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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The real thing is that the jude's sex is expected to make a difference in the first place, that looks pretty sexist to me. By the people pretending to fight sexism, that is.

Exactly, and the same applies to the women, they're just as responsible for their acts.

Before everybody gets their knickers in a twist: responsibility is distinct from guilt.
„No“ is „No“.

Regardless of who you are or your background (many have not come from backgrounds that have been privileged to learn this).
Or also not dependent on the amount drunk by the rapists.

But „No“, is still „NO“.

Basta, fertig
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  #26  
Old 30.09.2021, 20:51
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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„No“ is „No“.

Regardless of who you are or your background (many have not come from backgrounds that have been privileged to learn this).
Or also not dependent on the amount drunk by the rapists.

But „No“, is still „NO“.

Basta, fertig
And if a woman is sober and the guy drunk, who is the 'rapist'?

It cuts both ways, and many guys have woken up with women that they wish they hadn't.

Tom
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  #27  
Old 30.09.2021, 20:52
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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I disagree. Stop trying to define the rules.

You're sending a stream of sexual signals with that. Experience should have told you by now that you don't get to decide whether every "recipient" respects the limits.

Agreed.
Burqas for all women as you can’t control yourself, lovely stuff.
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  #28  
Old 30.09.2021, 21:08
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Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

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This is an excellent thread. The cases of rape have increase horribly in Switzerland in recent years (don‘t think that you need to understand German to see the curve), otherwise, get an on-line translator:

https://de.statista.com/statistik/da...n-der-schweiz/

Note - the definition of rape in Switzerland
Interesting. So the definition of rape is only for vaginal intercourse, as someone else had mentioned before. But here it says that other forms are punishable by the same sentences. The other observation is that the data shows the number of charges pressed, not convictions.
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  #29  
Old 30.09.2021, 21:10
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Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

This is an excellent thread. The cases of rape have increase horribly in Switzerland in recent years (don‘t think that you need to understand German to see the curve), otherwise, get an on-line translator:

https://de.statista.com/statistik/da...n-der-schweiz/

or in English another:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8923496.html

Note - the definition of rape in Switzerland
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  #30  
Old 30.09.2021, 21:11
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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And if a woman is sober and the guy drunk, who is the 'rapist'?

It cuts both ways, and many guys have woken up with women that they wish they hadn't.

Tom
In the UK, the definition of rape is (was?) the intentional penetration of another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent. so it isn't possible for a female to rape a male by definition.
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  #31  
Old 30.09.2021, 21:12
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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And if a woman is sober and the guy drunk, who is the 'rapist'?

It cuts both ways, and many guys have woken up with women that they wish they hadn't.

Tom
Hi Tom

In case you haven’t noticed, there‘s another thread for bullshit on this topic

Love ya anyway
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  #32  
Old 30.09.2021, 21:18
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Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

We live in a Western society where women and men have the legal right to say no to sex, a right which is protected by law. Although I will agree that there is some behaviour that may put women and men more at risk of becoming victims of sexual assault, it still does not give anyone the right to force themselves on another person.

By the way, I take issue to a sentence above that women can always have sex but men can’t. Sex isn’t just limited to ejaculation, orgasms and penetration. Some women can’t have intercourse due to periods, health or ethical issues. Having a hole to penetrate certainly does not mean you can have intercourse at any time.

And then there’s sexual assault which includes rape as well as many other sexual offenses.
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  #33  
Old 30.09.2021, 21:19
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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I'm bowing out too. I've tried to explain but... jesus.

One of the first things, the very first things, we learn as we grow is that we are not responsible for the actions of others. Thinking otherwise is how coercive abusive relationships happen.."look what you made me do" etc etc. Utter BS.

Vile.
Well, I‘m not „bowing out“, and neither should you - it‘s a good thread, that interests the entire female population here on EF.
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  #34  
Old 30.09.2021, 21:39
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Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

I've had a lot of fun in my life, sometimes with dudes that were not the best choice. Never, not even once, did it occur to me to make false accusations of assault just because I regretted sleeping with a guy. Why prolong the memory? Heck no.

However, if a guy had disrespected boundaries, humiliated me without my consent or secretly removed the condom during sex, I absolutely would be considering taking legal action. If it was the sort of thing that you can't really prosecute but was definitely not ok, he will be getting a very unfavourable review on the grapevine. In Zurich, that can very quickly kill your game, I'm friends with a lot of people of all ages.
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  #35  
Old 30.09.2021, 22:04
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Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

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I disagree. Stop trying to define the rules.

You're sending a stream of sexual signals with that. Experience should have told you by now that you don't get to decide whether every "recipient" respects the limits.

But that's the point. They should.

If not victim shaming or body shaming, what exactly are you doing by saying women should watch how they dress?

You're either being deliberately provocative in order to get a rise, in which case well done, or you actually believe this horseshit. Maybe run those comments by the women of your acquaintance.

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Well, I‘m not „bowing out“, and neither should you - it‘s a good thread, that interests the entire female population here on EF.
Yeah. Point taken.

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I've had a lot of fun in my life, sometimes with dudes that were not the best choice. Never, not even once, did it occur to me to make false accusations of assault just because I regretted sleeping with a guy. Why prolong the memory? Heck no.

However, if a guy had disrespected boundaries, humiliated me without my consent or secretly removed the condom during sex, I absolutely would be considering taking legal action. If it was the sort of thing that you can't really prosecute but was definitely not ok, he will be getting a very unfavourable review on the grapevine. In Zurich, that can very quickly kill your game, I'm friends with a lot of people of all ages.
Exactly.

And "stealthing" is apparently now prosecutable.
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  #36  
Old 30.09.2021, 22:35
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Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

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We live in a Western society where women and men have the legal right to say no to sex, a right which is protected by law.
Are we still discussing this....in 2021?

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Although I will agree that there is some behaviour that may put women and men more at risk of becoming victims of sexual assault, it still does not give anyone the right to force themselves on another person.
.
Exactly.
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  #37  
Old 30.09.2021, 22:36
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Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

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No.


Sounds like a word you need to memorise.

No.

Also learn coercion.

No.
With all due respect, Biro was referring to "Yes" that evening, while under the influence of alcohol, and "No" the morning after the deed. That doesn't really work.

I never knew the differences in definition. I think I'll stick with the UK one.
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  #38  
Old 30.09.2021, 23:03
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Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

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With all due respect, Biro was referring to "Yes" that evening, while under the influence of alcohol, and "No" the morning after the deed. That doesn't really work.

I never knew the differences in definition. I think I'll stick with the UK one.
If women can be told not to get too drunk, how about we tell men not to screw drunk women? As much as the narrative always finds a way to blame women, men do so many stupid things that make me have little sympathy for the consequences thereof.

Last edited by Kittster; 01.10.2021 at 01:32. Reason: Pre-empting further work for the mods
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  #39  
Old 01.10.2021, 07:24
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Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

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If women can be told not to get too drunk, how about we tell men not to screw drunk women?
Nobody said women shouldn't get drunk. I get the "incapable of giving consent" argument and agree with it. No one needs to tell me not to screw women who are insensible!

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men do so many stupid things that make me have little sympathy for the consequences thereof.
IEven when a women gives consent and then withdraws that consent afterwards? Because that's the scenario Biro raised.
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  #40  
Old 01.10.2021, 07:50
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Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

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This is very close to victim blaming.

Most women dress to please themselves and their friends. I'm sure most if us have been out with cleavage and a bit of leg on show. But that's it. A show. A costume. An appearance. A choice. It's not an invitation to touch or to follow or to verbally abuse.

Attracting an admiring gaze or two is one thing but it stops there. Should women cover themselves neck to toe because some people in society can't restrain themselves?


This thread split doesn't make much sense btw. It's a complex subject. Shouldn't be, but it is.
I like the comment by George Takei on this subject, he said "when a man is raped, you never hear anyone comment on what he was wearing".

If you can't control yourself based on what the woman in front of you is wearing, the solution is simple: move to Afghanistan, where this problem has been neatly resolved by ensuring you can never see women outside, educated, in a job, or speaking without permission. There you go, a world with women not begging for it at every turn, what more could one want ?

Edit: I am agreeing to your point RufusB, not against it.
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