Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 01.10.2021, 07:58
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,802
Groaned at 2,651 Times in 1,883 Posts
Thanked 39,940 Times in 18,845 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Quote:
View Post
If women can be told not to get too drunk, how about we tell men not to screw drunk women?
And if both are drunk?

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01.10.2021, 08:21
Gil Gil is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: ZŁrich
Posts: 93
Groaned at 10 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 201 Times in 75 Posts
Gil has an excellent reputationGil has an excellent reputationGil has an excellent reputationGil has an excellent reputation
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Its a difficult topic, and made more so because men are commenting on an experience they are almost guaranteed not to be on the receiving end of. The closest thing I've had was a creepy looking guy opposite me on the train scrolling through dick pics on his phone and slowly rubbing his crotch, the memory still creeps me out. I was shocked that the majority of female friends had similar stories.

I think accusations of victim blaming are overboard, the only thing a girl deserves for getting drunk in a revealing outfit is a hangover and to be made fun of by her mates. Any woman should be able to go out and get hammered wearing what she likes, but should isn't can and saying that's just a recognition that there are predators in the world.

But to add to the topic at hand, my wife came here from Las Vegas and she feels safe to travel around the city at night which she wouldn't do in 'Vegas.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Gil for this useful post:
  #43  
Old 01.10.2021, 09:25
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern
Posts: 2,406
Groaned at 465 Times in 302 Posts
Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,867 Posts
Susie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Quote:
View Post
Well, I‘m not „bowing out“, and neither should you - it‘s a good thread, that interests the entire female population here on EF.
I’m trying not to, but I’m honestly shocked that several people on here have implied that if a woman wears a sexual outfit or is drunk, she should expect to be violently raped or sexually assaulted because she was asking for it.

I don’t know what to say to such people other than you shouldn’t have been born.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Susie-Q for this useful post:
  #44  
Old 01.10.2021, 09:47
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 15,422
Groaned at 323 Times in 277 Posts
Thanked 24,035 Times in 9,780 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Quote:
View Post
The closest thing I've had was a creepy looking guy opposite me on the train scrolling through dick pics on his phone and slowly rubbing his crotch,
I know weirdos are weird and I guess some men might get off by doing that when a woman is around - but was he gay, perhaps? Seems a bit odd for a straight man to be looking at dick pics.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
This user groans at NotAllThere for this post:
  #45  
Old 01.10.2021, 09:52
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Geneva
Posts: 718
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 850 Times in 360 Posts
MajorGrubert has a reputation beyond reputeMajorGrubert has a reputation beyond reputeMajorGrubert has a reputation beyond reputeMajorGrubert has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Exhibitionism by proxy. He couldn't very well take out his penis in public so the next best thing was conspicuously scrolling through genitalia pics on his phone for the woman in front to see. Gross, I know.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank MajorGrubert for this useful post:
  #46  
Old 01.10.2021, 10:01
Castro's Avatar
ŗ la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 5,778
Groaned at 127 Times in 103 Posts
Thanked 17,402 Times in 5,533 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Quote:
View Post
I’m trying not to, but I’m honestly shocked that several people on here have implied that if a woman wears a sexual outfit or is drunk, she should expect to be violently raped or sexually assaulted because she was asking for it.

I don’t know what to say to such people other than you shouldn’t have been born.
Can we please reduce the insults on all sides. This is a sensitive topic but it should still be possible to 'attack the ball not the player', otherwise the thread gets shut down which would be a shame.
Reply With Quote
The following 10 users would like to thank Castro for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at Castro for this post:
  #47  
Old 01.10.2021, 10:26
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern
Posts: 2,406
Groaned at 465 Times in 302 Posts
Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,867 Posts
Susie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Quote:
View Post
Can we please reduce the insults on all sides. This is a sensitive topic but it should still be possible to 'attack the ball not the player', otherwise the thread gets shut down which would be a shame.
I can’t tell you how absolutely infuriating and disgusting it is as a woman to read these comments ... and yet, you call out my comment as being the bad one.

I’ve had my drink spiked twice... once in Switzerland by the bar tender. It made me appear entirely inebriated & despite no fault of my own, I was apparently asking to be sexually assaulted. I also was the sober driver of an entire group of girlfriends in college who had their drinks spiked at a club and I later had to drive them to the hospital ... I guess they were asking for it too. I guess we women should not be attractive, because my modest dress certainly wasn’t asking to be spiked into a coma.

Also, that time I was dancing and laughing with my friends after work (in work clothes) meant a man could walk up to me on the dance floor and grab me down there because my carefree happiness was also a sign to be assaulted.

Waiting for comments of “hysteria”...
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Susie-Q for this useful post:
  #48  
Old 01.10.2021, 10:36
Castro's Avatar
ŗ la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 5,778
Groaned at 127 Times in 103 Posts
Thanked 17,402 Times in 5,533 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Quote:
View Post
I canít tell you how absolutely infuriating and disgusting it is as a woman to read these comments ... and yet, you call out my comment as being the bad one.
What is not acceptable is:

Quote:
I donít know what to say to such people other than you shouldnít have been born.
Had someone written the same to you they would be similarly warned. You defeat antiquated, misogynistic views with the power of reason and argument, not insults.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Castro for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at Castro for this post:
  #49  
Old 01.10.2021, 10:38
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern
Posts: 2,406
Groaned at 465 Times in 302 Posts
Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,867 Posts
Susie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Quote:
View Post
What is not acceptable is:



Had someone written the same to you they would be similarly warned. You defeat antiquated, misogynistic views with the power of reason and argument, not insults.
Their views are insulting and lead to/permit physical acts of bodily and severe mental harm. But please, put the spotlight on my comment.

There is no reasoning with individuals with such vile views.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Susie-Q for this useful post:
  #50  
Old 01.10.2021, 10:39
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Swiss Confederation
Posts: 11,537
Groaned at 413 Times in 339 Posts
Thanked 17,764 Times in 8,987 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Quote:
View Post
But to add to the topic at hand, my wife came here from Las Vegas and she feels safe to travel around the city at night which she wouldn't do in 'Vegas.
The thing is, I have travelled at night in almost every city I've lived or visited without significant incidents, but not without any fear or without being extremely aware of my surroundings. As I see it, a woman is or should be like 200xtimes more prudent than a male. It is tiring and unfair.

Anyway, let's chill a bit. We can discuss without getting personal.

Last edited by greenmount; 01.10.2021 at 10:52.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #51  
Old 01.10.2021, 11:21
swisspea's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Around Lake Zurich
Posts: 6,502
Groaned at 43 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 6,733 Times in 3,059 Posts
swisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond reputeswisspea has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

For me, these sorts of discussions often divert from the more common experience.


You are far more likely to be sexually assaultted, abused, hurt, by someone within your family environment, an intimate partner, a family member or friend than by a random stranger.


Yes, it happens - I have actually been witness to a case involving random predatory behaviour by an older teenager on a primary schooler - it was prosecuted and the perpetrator was found guilty. So it does happen. What was worst was going to a specialist lawyer to get advice, who told us the child was 'extremely lucky' and 'much worse things happen'.


As mentioned, the vast majority of these things occur out of public view, are not reported, both to protect the victim and to avoid scaring society, and also not to send the message to other perpetrators that they have 'company' in their crime.


It is really hard to prosecute, as very often the evidence is not available.


Here's what I learnt from real life:


1. Report it immediately - there is a specialist child protection/sexual crime unit at the Kantonpolizei and they are seriously professional. You can also go to the KAPO in your local area and they will refer.



2. Report it immediately because CCTV is often only held for up to 3 days!


3. If the incident occurred anywhere near/on public transport, it can also involve their own special police unit - and have the power to grab CCTV from - buses, Trams, Trains, stations - and please note point 2 - you only have a very short time to report, so they can preserve the recordings.


4. Family rule - I have spoken about this before - always tell someone: where you are going, who you are with, and when you will be home. And yes, this includes adults as well as children.



5. Advice from police to parents ? You must *always* try to know what your child is doing with their electronic devices - phone, internet, social media. Have these devices in a public space, open doors, and know their password. Check regularly who they communicate with and they type of communication they are having. Sounds really tough - but we don't do it - and the policeman really told is this is necessary so our kids accept it. When our kids were younger, we made them aware that we could 'see' everything they do on the computer...


This may be slightly away from 'safety for women' but I think it's the same advice. There was an extremely high-profile rape case in Australia many years ago, when mobile phones were first available. On the day of sentencing, the judge made a very unusual step of making the police emergency call from the victims public for broadcast. It made it clear that the victims had assumed their mobile phone would keep them safe. Firstly, they thought it would be OK to go out, meet up with people they did not really know, and go places, without informing anyone and b) that if a problem arose, they could just call for help.


Their emergency calls were spine-chilling - they had no idea where they were, who they had been with, or how to get home. It took a painfully long time to get emergency services to them...



The point is not that 'new phones' can track someone down. It's that if you think they are your 'security plan' you are being unrealistic.



That said, I feel much safer here in Switzerland than I do walking down the road in Sydney Australia. And I have certainly travelled a lot of other places where I felt much more fearful/unsafe.



The only time I was harrassed on a tram in Zurich, by a fairly drunk and aggressive person, just as my friend and I were considering what to do to get out of the situation (I was not alone - we were two women) the police boarded the tram, and removed the person - it was clear that they knew him and he knew them.



It is generally very safe in Switzerland - walking around, taking public transport late at night, travelling alone, is generally safe.


Oh, but a friend of ours who was travelling solo across the world, was warned over and over and over not to hike alone in the mountains, from all her hosts - hotels, people working at the tourist information centres, people working on the cablecars and mountain railways - she was surprised how many times she was told by locals 'please do not hike alone in our mountains'.... nothing to do with sexual violence...everything to do with personal safety.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank swisspea for this useful post:
  #52  
Old 01.10.2021, 11:46
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 15,422
Groaned at 323 Times in 277 Posts
Thanked 24,035 Times in 9,780 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Quote:
View Post
Exhibitionism by proxy. He couldn't very well take out his penis in public so the next best thing was conspicuously scrolling through genitalia pics on his phone for the woman in front to see. Gross, I know.
Oh ok, makes sense. Such weird behaviour would never occur to me. I'm glad I lead a sheltered life.

Eww...
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #53  
Old 01.10.2021, 13:17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: zurich
Posts: 268
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 451 Times in 149 Posts
irish_marmot has a reputation beyond reputeirish_marmot has a reputation beyond reputeirish_marmot has a reputation beyond reputeirish_marmot has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Quote:
View Post
And if both are drunk?

Tom



On these style questions and the no topic. I think the important thing to teach our kids/teens is the word - yes. When you are having consensual sex with someone, yes is a word you say A LOT All flippancy aside, consent is enthusiastic and it should be a wonderful intimate experience for both. So, I believe we should be teaching our sons and daughters (and friends if that applies) that the word is yes.



If the person is quiet (maybe because they are passed out drunk because they made that choice or for some other reason). Stop check if they are ok, this is to protect yourself as much as them. If they cannot say yes there and then, you should stop. You are protecting yourself as well as them. Sex is much better when both parties are into it and consent if never a "murky" topic, ie it should be very clear the other person has consented. Not saying no - is not consent. Saying Yes is consent.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank irish_marmot for this useful post:
  #54  
Old 01.10.2021, 13:36
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern
Posts: 2,406
Groaned at 465 Times in 302 Posts
Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,867 Posts
Susie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Quote:
View Post
For me, these sorts of discussions often divert from the more common experience.
Iím sorry but that is simply not true. Every single woman Iíve been close to has several stories. Comments like this are not helpful, even more so the comments that it could be the womanís fault as it is a primary reason why most stories are not reported widely.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Susie-Q for this useful post:
  #55  
Old 01.10.2021, 13:45
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 15,422
Groaned at 323 Times in 277 Posts
Thanked 24,035 Times in 9,780 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Quote:
View Post
I’m sorry but that is simply not true. Every single woman I’ve been close to has several stories. Comments like this are not helpful
I think Swisspea is female. Is her experience invalidated because it doesn't match yours? Or do you think she's lying? Or maybe just doesn't know any women and is and always has been locked inside a castle?

How can you say "this is simply not true" just because your experience is different?
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 01.10.2021, 13:49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Cold Ghost
Posts: 282
Groaned at 46 Times in 42 Posts
Thanked 865 Times in 347 Posts
BritS has a reputation beyond reputeBritS has a reputation beyond reputeBritS has a reputation beyond reputeBritS has a reputation beyond reputeBritS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Quote:
View Post
I think Swisspea is female. Is her experience invalidated because it doesn't match yours? Or do you think she's lying? Or maybe just doesn't know any women and is and always has been locked inside a castle?
Think accusations of lying are a bit harsh honestly.

I'm not sure you can prove anything here with a negative though. I could imagine no matter how close you were to a woman, be they even wife or daughter, they might not be comfortable sharing such an experience with you, so if anything, i think the confirmation bias goes the other way with guys - we rarely hear these stories so assume it is all overblown when in fact it almost certainly goes the other way in reality.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank BritS for this useful post:
  #57  
Old 01.10.2021, 14:01
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,149
Groaned at 201 Times in 146 Posts
Thanked 3,855 Times in 1,422 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Quote:
View Post
Iím sorry but that is simply not true. Every single woman Iíve been close to has several stories. Comments like this are not helpful, even more so the comments that it could be the womanís fault as it is a primary reason why most stories are not reported widely.
Maybe this is your own experience and you extrapolate it to the wider society? Your impression is valid, for you, however, it doesn't necessarily make it valid across the whole population in Switzerland. Your explicit statement that all women shouldn't feel safe implies that all men in Switzerland are predators. Sorry, this is absolutely not true and making the insinuation is not just wrong, it's dangerous. And yes, the case you brought forward to prove your point is not the best one.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #58  
Old 01.10.2021, 14:05
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Cold Ghost
Posts: 282
Groaned at 46 Times in 42 Posts
Thanked 865 Times in 347 Posts
BritS has a reputation beyond reputeBritS has a reputation beyond reputeBritS has a reputation beyond reputeBritS has a reputation beyond reputeBritS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Quote:
View Post
Maybe this is your own experience and you extrapolate it to the wider society? Your impression is valid, for you, however, it doesn't necessarily make it valid across the whole population in Switzerland. Your explicit statement that all women shouldn't feel safe implies that all men in Switzerland are predators. Sorry, this is absolutely not true and making the insinuation is not just wrong, it's dangerous. And yes, the case you brought forward to prove your point is not the best one.
I'm not sure how you deduce that from her point.

It doesn't take all men being predators to make a woman feel unsafe, in fact it probably only takes a very small percentage of the population. I would wager that if 1% of the time you got in a car, you were likely to have an accident, you'd probably not feel safe any time you got in a car.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank BritS for this useful post:
  #59  
Old 01.10.2021, 14:17
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,972
Groaned at 186 Times in 121 Posts
Thanked 8,696 Times in 2,908 Posts
Kittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How is it for women here when out especially at night alone? (Sarah Everard)

Quote:
View Post
Their views are insulting and lead to/permit physical acts of bodily and severe mental harm. But please, put the spotlight on my comment.

There is no reasoning with individuals with such vile views.
I understand that you are angry, I am too. However, I have to agree with Castro and I also think that we have seen several posters mature into much more reasonable people on this forum. Not sure the individual you are attacking has the potential to develop into a fully formed mature adult, however, telling people they should not have been born is a bit "eugenic".

Most men simply cannot understand what it is like to be assaulted and those that do are often ridiculed for speaking up, which is a whole new can of sh*t that needs sorting out. Just like a white person cannot understand what it is like to be faced with racism and microaggressions, a physically fit person cannot grasp the struggle of a person with disabilities, etc. That is all good and normal. What is not ok is how they often choose to dismiss our experience and gaslight us. They don't even know the half of it and we are so very, VERY tired.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Kittster for this useful post:
  #60  
Old 01.10.2021, 14:20
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern
Posts: 2,406
Groaned at 465 Times in 302 Posts
Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,867 Posts
Susie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond reputeSusie-Q has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Thread split: Safety for women alone in CH

Quote:
View Post
Maybe this is your own experience and you extrapolate it to the wider society? Your impression is valid, for you, however, it doesn't necessarily make it valid across the whole population in Switzerland. Your explicit statement that all women shouldn't feel safe implies that all men in Switzerland are predators. Sorry, this is absolutely not true and making the insinuation is not just wrong, it's dangerous. And yes, the case you brought forward to prove your point is not the best one.
Yet another fragile male ego that thinks by bringing to light that most women are victims of some sort of sexual assault suddenly means they are all predators.

I do not think Swisspea is lying, in fact I am delighted that she doesn’t know of many instances and her experience is indeed very rare. I am trying to share what most women today have been through and working very hard to improve it.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Susie-Q for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gr.Mythen SZ-safety - novices+children[Split from Thread "Hiking in Switzerland"] Longbyt Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 19 21.05.2013 13:34
Women Personal Safety and Self-Defense: 2 Hrs Crash Course Gold Cara Commercial events 5 12.11.2011 22:51
New MacBook Air [Thread Split] Gastro Gnome TV/internet/telephone 168 25.04.2011 00:27
(thread split) Thread for sensitive, thin-skinned people to ramble aimlessly higgybaby General off-topic 80 03.11.2009 15:53


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0