Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Daily life  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09.05.2022, 11:40
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Oberwallis
Posts: 143
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 40 Times in 23 Posts
Penelopy has no particular reputation at present
Solar for the home

I'm about to have solar on the roof. The company tells me:
1) a battery is not worth having
2) the solar needs to be on for a year before they can say what size I need
3) they can sell me a 12 kWh battery for CHF 13'500

Any comments on these 3 points please?

Further, what I really would prefer is to have my house off-grid. The solar I have been quoted for requires electricity from the net to function. So, no mains, no solar. Does anyone know if any firms are installing off-grid systems for family homes?

Thank you for any helpful comments.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09.05.2022, 12:27
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 17,725
Groaned at 711 Times in 556 Posts
Thanked 27,047 Times in 10,913 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

Quote:
View Post
I'm about to have solar on the roof. The company tells me:
1) a battery is not worth having
2) the solar needs to be on for a year before they can say what size I need
3) they can sell me a 12 kWh battery for CHF 13'500

Thank you for any helpful comments.
I'd get another quote to compare.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 09.05.2022, 12:44
arz arz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Zurich Witikon
Posts: 195
Groaned at 73 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 190 Times in 129 Posts
arz is considered unworthyarz is considered unworthyarz is considered unworthy
Re: Solar for the home

Google for "photovoltaic calculator site:ch"
The quote sounds quite reasonable. You probably can half it by buying materials from China and sourcing the handwork on tutty.ch, at your own risk.
I'd avoid batteries, too.
Off-grid in Switzerland, IMHO, is unrealistic or very inconvenient.

See where you consume the most of electricity, and try to cover it with solar. Maybe you can achieve 80/20 % roof/grid rate.
I think , at least heating can be done by solar only, but you'll need a very large, well insulated water tank (or multiple tanks) to save the energy in hot water for a foggy day, instead of saving it in batteries. You can find a 1000l electric boiler for below CHF 1000K. May need 2 or 3 of these.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank arz for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 09.05.2022, 12:48
roegner's Avatar
Moderately Dutch
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,253
Groaned at 398 Times in 335 Posts
Thanked 16,239 Times in 7,445 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

Quote:
View Post
Google for "photovoltaic calculator site:ch"
The quote sounds quite reasonable. You probably can half it by buying materials from China and sourcing the handwork on tutty.ch, at your own risk.
I'd avoid batteries, too.
Off-grid in Switzerland, IMHO, is unrealistic or very inconvenient.

See where you consume the most of electricity, and try to cover it with solar. Maybe you can achieve 80/20 % roof/grid rate.
I think , at least heating can be done by solar only, but you'll need a very large, well insulated water tank (or multiple tanks) to save the energy in hot water for a foggy day, instead of saving it in batteries.
Why avoid batteries (serious question as I am looking into solar panels as well)?

Thanks
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 09.05.2022, 13:05
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,249
Groaned at 165 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,469 Times in 714 Posts
Biro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

Batteries are not worth it, they are too small to make any real difference, 12kw..... for Chgf 12'500.--


You'll never make this money back.


Batteries are a good idea for night use, espeically if you have only 1 tarif, but the technology needs to improve still, which it will, and the price needs to come down significantly.


Also remember, and nobody selling tells you this, during summer night time electricity use is far smaller than winter, but in winter, solar panels, whilst still working do not work as well or as much a summer !


Also depending on altitude where you live, solar panels don't work iof they have snow on them , and heating them to melt the snow takes far more energy rthan they produce before you ask


To Aza : Where exactly do you find a 1'000 litre electrtic boilere for less than Chf 1'000.-- care to post a link maybe ?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Biro for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 09.05.2022, 13:16
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 4,832
Groaned at 89 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 6,848 Times in 3,231 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

Fire risk?

Here in Switzerland I've only seen rules on how the system should be installed. Also, what documents (mainly plans) need to be submitted to local authorities to be shared with firefighters so they don't get hurt while putting off a fire in buildings with solar installs no matter the fire source. No major technical challenge but I'd bet all this costs money.

Batteries can start a fire too but the risk is minimal if competent electrician does the job. I don't own a home, so no idea if insurance is impacted by having a large amount of batteries under your roof.

Financial side?

Batteries do not make that much sense economically. Energy is lost while charging the battery. Engineers will say better send back extra energy to the network instead of storing it locally. Batteries make sense when there's no network on when living off-grid is more important than money. I guess telling smugly to your neighbors you charge your car from your roof is something worth paying.

Environmental concerns.

The objective of solar is to reduce the environmental impact of electricity generation. But batteries are far from being "green". Minerals coming from war zones, mining minerals without minimizing environmental impact, lack of certainty about recycling, etc.

Lots of people are working on making greener and bloodless batteries, advances are made every day, but we're not there yet. It seems there will be better batteries in a few years, better wait.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 09.05.2022, 13:19
venetian's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Zuerich
Posts: 805
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 1,029 Times in 467 Posts
venetian has a reputation beyond reputevenetian has a reputation beyond reputevenetian has a reputation beyond reputevenetian has a reputation beyond reputevenetian has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

Quote:
View Post
Further, what I really would prefer is to have my house off-grid. The solar I have been quoted for requires electricity from the net to function. So, no mains, no solar.
But... could it be different?

With trains, when they apply electric braking the generated power must go back into the grid or dissipated by heat, meaning additional components.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank venetian for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 09.05.2022, 13:37
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 15,206
Groaned at 302 Times in 202 Posts
Thanked 19,400 Times in 8,174 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

at 13500 for the battery, i can see why they don't recommend. you're paying for about 10 years of electricity just for the battery. and batteries have a limited lifespan. if they last just 10 years, then it make no economic sense at all.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09.05.2022, 13:41
ipoddle's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: basel
Posts: 1,293
Groaned at 25 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,265 Times in 530 Posts
ipoddle has a reputation beyond reputeipoddle has a reputation beyond reputeipoddle has a reputation beyond reputeipoddle has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

I was recently talking to a professional swiss electrical engineer with a lot of industrial experience in PV (solar power).

His view reflects the above... it maybe worth putting panels on your house but only if a big incentive is helping the environment. Domestic batteries are still 3 to 5 years away from being economical (depending on advances in solid state tech).

The big 'scandal' is that the energy companies could 'easily' ramp up huge solar farms that would significantly reduce fossil fuel demand. It's at scale that PV makes economic sense..but.. as he ruefully pointed out.. that would mean enormous changes in how large providers operate and they're not prepared to write off their existing investments in fossil fuel infrastructure.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ipoddle for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 09.05.2022, 14:48
arz arz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Zurich Witikon
Posts: 195
Groaned at 73 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 190 Times in 129 Posts
arz is considered unworthyarz is considered unworthyarz is considered unworthy
Re: Solar for the home

Quote:
View Post
Why avoid batteries (serious question as I am looking into solar panels as well)?
Thanks
Heard from a friend that the capacity drops faster than claimed in the tech specs, so you'll have to change them after 4 to 6 years, depending on usage pattern.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank arz for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 09.05.2022, 14:57
AbFab's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 8,874
Groaned at 386 Times in 265 Posts
Thanked 13,414 Times in 4,602 Posts
AbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond reputeAbFab has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

We have a 24 panel 9.6pkWh system installed in 2020.

Forget batteries. Forget being off grid unless you are a hippy. You can’t be off grid and still have grid for bad weather days because when there is a power cut solar systems shuts down automatically to avoid electrocuting engineers working on cables. That said I’ve lived in Switzerland for 33 years and have never experienced a power cut.

Subsidies vary by canton. Zurich give back an amount based on peak output. We got just over CHF4000 back. The electric company (EKZ) pay from 1 Jan this year CHF0.09 per kWh put back into the grid.

The total installation cost (approx CHF32,000) is tax deductible for the year of installation - something our salesman didn’t mention.

We run 2 electric vehicles from the solar. Our annual bill for electricity (heat pump) is about CHF900. I hope with the increased subsidy this will come down this year.

To my mind solar is to help the environment as much as save any money.

I cannot recommend the Swiss company who installed the system. Their engineers and installers were excellent, but their admin was hopeless. We were given an installation promise of March which turn out to be September…
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank AbFab for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 09.05.2022, 15:11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Japan
Posts: 354
Groaned at 24 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 550 Times in 231 Posts
Plau Deri has an excellent reputationPlau Deri has an excellent reputationPlau Deri has an excellent reputationPlau Deri has an excellent reputation
Re: Solar for the home

Just yesterday, there was a very informative YouTube Video on that explanis a lot of the questions you might have:

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Plau Deri for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 09.05.2022, 15:20
arz arz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Zurich Witikon
Posts: 195
Groaned at 73 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 190 Times in 129 Posts
arz is considered unworthyarz is considered unworthyarz is considered unworthy
Re: Solar for the home

Quote:
View Post
To Aza : Where exactly do you find a 1'000 litre electrtic boilere for less than Chf 1'000.-- care to post a link maybe ?
Sorry, can't remember where I bought mine for EUR 800, it was 9 years ago.
Quick search brings up something like this:




Photovoltaics were still too expensive then, my calculation showed that cost return would take 30 years, so I went for "Erdzonden-Wärmepumpe" which kind of works, but turned out not an ideal not an ideal solution, as it heats to 55C at best.
Now cost return seems to take less that 20 years.

The 1000l boiler I bought in Germany is a "Hygienespeicher" - it means that the water you use has no direct contact with heating elements, so it remains drinkable. It works quite well if you consume the water slowly, but if the family uses 2 showers at the time, the water runs too fast through the warm exchange system and may get colder at the end, even though still warm in the boiler.
Mine, in addition to input from the Wärmepumpe, has a built-in 400V 4KW electric heater with thermostat, which lets me heat up to ca. 70C when I absolutely need it (like, a crowd of guest staying overnight)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank arz for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 09.05.2022, 16:05
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Happy Valley
Posts: 394
Groaned at 33 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 814 Times in 357 Posts
Flakk has a reputation beyond reputeFlakk has a reputation beyond reputeFlakk has a reputation beyond reputeFlakk has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

Quote:
View Post
Also depending on altitude where you live, solar panels don't work iof they have snow on them , and heating them to melt the snow takes far more energy rthan they produce before you ask
Actually depending on snow thickness they do. Just produce less or a lot less electricity. Given a south facing roof the snow melts pretty quickly anyway.

To the OP, check carefully what subsidies you can get your hands on. Between these (we found 2, one national and one local) and the tax deduction our 12.2 KwP roof cost about CHF 12K net from 25K gross.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09.05.2022, 16:23
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,249
Groaned at 165 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,469 Times in 714 Posts
Biro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

Quote:
View Post
Actually depending on snow thickness they do. Just produce less or a lot less electricity. Given a south facing roof the snow melts pretty quickly anyway.

To the OP, check carefully what subsidies you can get your hands on. Between these (we found 2, one national and one local) and the tax deduction our 12.2 KwP roof cost about CHF 12K net from 25K gross.

I'm sure you know best


P I've produced just over 50 MWh in just over 3 years, i'm South facing and at 800m. Snow doesn't really melt when the temp has a problem getting over 0°C and the glass panel underneath also stays cold preventing melting.




Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09.05.2022, 18:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,065
Groaned at 80 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 4,363 Times in 2,348 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

Well, the batteries make sense once you can upload to the grid at night or when the utility pays most for the juice.

I don't know if that is possible already - and if it become possible at a later date, your hardware knows how to do it or if you have to through a couple thousand more towards it...

https://www.uvek-gis.admin.ch/BFE/sonnendach/

The good thing about Switzerland is that AFAIK the whole country is cataloged.
They have a database of every single house in Switzerland, with orientation, inclination, shape of the roof.

Just enter the address and it tells you how much energy you can expect to "harvest".

If the batteries are LFP, they should last very long.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank rainer_d for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 09.05.2022, 18:29
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ticino
Posts: 3,139
Groaned at 98 Times in 68 Posts
Thanked 4,162 Times in 1,658 Posts
Snoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond reputeSnoopy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

Quote:
View Post
The good thing about Switzerland is that AFAIK the whole country is cataloged.
They have a database of every single house in Switzerland, with orientation, inclination, shape of the roof.

Just enter the address and it tells you how much energy you can expect to "harvest".
https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&to...2874.88&zoom=0
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Snoopy for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 09.05.2022, 19:07
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Geneva
Posts: 1,249
Groaned at 165 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 1,469 Times in 714 Posts
Biro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond reputeBiro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

Quote:
View Post
Well, the batteries make sense once you can upload to the grid at night or when the utility pays most for the juice.

I don't know if that is possible already - and if it become possible at a later date, your hardware knows how to do it or if you have to through a couple thousand more towards it...

https://www.uvek-gis.admin.ch/BFE/sonnendach/

The good thing about Switzerland is that AFAIK the whole country is cataloged.
They have a database of every single house in Switzerland, with orientation, inclination, shape of the roof.

Just enter the address and it tells you how much energy you can expect to "harvest".

If the batteries are LFP, they should last very long.

Once you "upload" to the grid and your batteries are empty you begin using "their" electricity which is usually about 3 times the price of what they pay you for "your" electricity......


The price of a battery system and the price they pay you makes this really a non starter.....


12 Kw at Chf 0.12/Kw (very generous, more like Chf 0.08/Kw) makes Chf 1.20 per full battery ands a battery costs ............Chf 13'500.--



It is all done instantaneously, no waiting around to see if you may use it or not, you either use it or sell it to them,.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09.05.2022, 19:44
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,065
Groaned at 80 Times in 59 Posts
Thanked 4,363 Times in 2,348 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

Well, given that Germany still plans to shutdown a lot of power plants this year and next year and that France's reactors are notoriously buggy and often offline, too, utilities may have to adjust the prices they pay.


https://blackout-news.de/aktuelles/k...altungen-2022/



But I agree, batteries are mostly a thing you want, rather something you need.


If a lot more houses had solar cells, feeding back a small amount of your stored energy into the grid from the battery that you know you will not need (because you're not planning to use the oven and only use the stove for a short while, for example) might actually make sense.


Likely, this could be semi-automated with ML that learns your habbits.


Whoever gets this done first and properly and has a large base installed will likely be able to generate nice profits.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09.05.2022, 19:57
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 7,327
Groaned at 442 Times in 325 Posts
Thanked 10,227 Times in 4,756 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Solar for the home

If you had solar panels and say two electric cars, why shouldn’t/couldn’t you use their batteries to feed the grid in periods of high demand? And charge from the panels or grid during low demand periods.

Probably wouldn’t work for everyone but for some it could be win-win.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Home solar plus battery question DKH Housing in general 12 26.04.2022 17:46
Solar eclipse Pixie B Daily life 147 24.03.2015 23:25
solar toys Guest General off-topic 4 06.07.2012 23:33
Solar Bob Hsiang Travel/day trips/free time 11 12.06.2009 13:40
Solar power Termite Housing in general 2 03.07.2008 11:20


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0