You could argue that the failure of the NHS actually started way back in the 60s. It's to do with the "free at the point of delivery" element. I'm just about old enough to remember stories of all comers turning up in Britain for free treatment being reported in the papers every so often as I remember my parents talking at the dinner table about it.

My mother's twin brother emigrated to the US in 1950, he worked on car design for GM and he used to write to her. In the 60s he'd often ask what was going on with healthcare in Britain because he had work colleagues who were taking sabbaticals to visit Europe, ending up in the UK to get free medical treatment (usually involving surgery). When he questioned them about it they just shrugged and said it meant they could avoid using their medical insurance in the States, then the premiums wouldn't go up. He was pretty appalled Britain could be so lax.

Fast forward to about 2016 when the BBC did a series about hospitals in London. There was one episode that made my blood boil, it was about overseas patients being invoiced for treatment but saying they had no means of payment. There was a Nigerian woman expecting a multiple birth who'd been refused entry to the US, she went into labour when the flight back to Nigeria had a stopover at Heathrow. Her babies took up all the available space in the paediatric ICU unit as they were so small. The nurses said they'd have to turn other babies away.

Then there was a Filipino woman who had come for a "holiday" to see her unemployed sister and nephew. She was admitted to A and E with chest pains. the doctors said she needed a triple bypass costing about 300k. The sister was questioned about paying and said she couldn't help as she was unemployed. The upshot was the bypass was carried out and 4 weeks later the skint unemployed sister was en route to Heathrow as they were both flying back to the home country. It was obvious the woman had deliberately entered the UK to get treatment for her heart condition. As I understand it the person's government is billed but the NHS never gets the cash as they just refuse to pay.

Is there any point throwing more money at something so badly run? It needs to stop being an international health service and it also needs to stop doling out over the counter remedies on free prescriptions as well. When my aunt went into care before her death in 2021 her house had to be cleared. She had thousands of paracetamol tablets her GP had been giving her on repeat, but she never used them and was never asked if she needed them.

Fishy data, trust at your own risk.

The Swiss covid data show 22k hospital beds in total, that's half of what the OECD claims for CH but roughly the same as the UK figure per 1k residents.

Of course it's not just the number of beds, it's just as much for how long an average case with diagnosis XYZ occupies one. While there are of course limits, the shorter the average stay the more cases can be treated with a given infrastructure.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't that very similar to UK pensioners who've moved abroad? Sure, they paid into the NHS while in the UK, but don't they still get free treatment "back home" after they left and no longer contribute?

Brexit is a factor in as much as many EU healthcare staff decided to leave because of it but it's not the only factor. Another important detail is that there are now double the amount of 80+ year olds than there were 25 years ago and a third fewer 18-24 year olds (no link, sorry, heard it on a recent podcast). NHS budgets pretty much stagnated in real terms after 2010 so a massively increased load of more medically-dependent people, along with losses of staff and no new staff coming through are equally, if not more significant.

No-one said it was the only factor.

This thread was started (not by me, I insist) to discuss possible issue for retirees considering coming to live in Switzerland. I think it was meant for those from the UK, but it was omitted in the title.

The discussion on the state of the NHS currently, was in response to someone caringly saying 'why don't you go back then'- and to explain why this was not good advice currently.

Back to the subject of this thread.

Before we do

UrsMax: 'Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't that very similar to UK pensioners who've moved abroad? Sure, they paid into the NHS while in the UK, but don't they still get free treatment "back home" after they left and no longer contribute? '

Well you say it yourself, they have contributed while in the UK. Legally, since Brexit, they are no longer allowed to go back and use the NHS, as it is a residence based system. They also have to deregister from their GP. Many do, and don't- but illegally.

If someone has retired abroad, it means they have contributed all their active life, about 40 years. If a retiree lives abroad and is entitled to exemption S1, they are allowed to go back for treatment. But as it is almost impossible to get an appointment to see a GP, and the waiting lists for routine and even emergency, or life-saving surgery are years long, how would it make sense when they can get treatment where they are now resident???

What amazed me when in a budget a few years ago I saw the amount given to the NHS. I divided this by the UK population and converted to CHF it was about the same as the basic cost each adult would pay in Switzerland - and the insurance company is making a profit!

Is that true? Are you legally obliged to "deregister from your GP in the UK"?


EDIT - just googled it. Not a legal requirement to deregister (just recommended) and you can return on a "visitor registration" after you've been away from the UK for more than 3 months.

The thread was a spin off from the other thread about retiring to the UK.

Following a mod discussion the thread was split and a mod (not me) moved posts related to retiring to Switzerland into a separate thread and it just so happens that your post was a convenient place to start.

This was done so as to keep the retiring to the UK thread on topic and a source of useful and relevant information on that topic for people searching for it in the future.

This thread was intended to provide useful information for anybody thinking of retiring to Switzerland from any country not just the UK which is why I the UK isn’t included in the thread title.

There are often question from people related to retiring to Switzerland either for themselves or other family members (parents etc).

As it stands now it is totally useless for the purpose for which it was intended as it has descended into yet another discussion about Brexit and the UK and contains very little useful information regarding retiring to Switzerland

From nhs.uk

and also from instructions given to all GPs in the UK

'If you're moving abroad on a permanent basis, you'll no longer automatically be entitled to medical treatment under normal NHS rules. This is because the NHS is a residence-based healthcare system. You'll have to notify your GP practice so you and your family can be removed from the NHS register.'

this is totall relevant to anyone retiring from the UK and moving to Switzerland, as per thread title.

Yes, I read that too. I was just curious about the "legal" aspect you alluded to in your post.

I didn't "deregister" and I'm probably on their books still now. Our family doctor asked my mum about 5 years after I'd left how I was and my mum said "living it up in Switzerland!".

Well that means two things

a) you are taking a space on your GP's list- when many patients are unable to join a GP practice due to lack of spaces

b) your GP is being paid, year in, year out, for you being on that list, whilst having to do nothing for it.

It also means they are not in an over-subscribed area struggling with waiting lists, and there are two other surgeries in the vicinity.

I guess if they were, they'd be diligently going through the patient lists with a fine-toothed comb every quarter.

I do believe this is falling on dead ears - once again. It’s like being on a perpetual time-warp. I wonder how many new threads it will take until the message is received and understood . Perhaps opening another new thread with one posters title in it might do the trick?

I don’t think it works like that any more.

It certainly didn’t at the practice my SIL managed in Hertfordshire nor at the practice another SIL works at as a receptionist in Middlesex.


That is exactly what they are obliged to do, maybe not quite as frequently as every quarter but certainly on a regular basis.
It was the bane of my SIL’s life as it was incredibly time consuming.

The post re the requirement to de-register from UK GP is directly linked to anyone retiree abroad, however.

GPs have been instructed to do so, and it is part of their contract to do so too.

What do you mean it does not work like this anymore??? GPs are paid per capita, and extras related to age, pregnancy, etc, etc.

....and she keeps on and on and on


You ever heard the expression "Flogging a dead Horse" because it more than applies to you in this thread !

She really needs to read the following post from the Mod:

https://www.englishforum.ch/3455056-post88.html

No horse had died. And I have read the post- anyone moving from UK to CH needs to know the implications for NHS care back in UK. You have to deregister from your GP and GP has to deregister you as per their contractual requirement - fact.

Thread can be closed- going round in circles is tiring and un-necessary.

You don't say.

It was interesting to read an article in The Local.DK today. Moral of the story:

Wherever you are are retiring from, ensure you are up-to-date with meeting all residency or visa requirements.

As it’s a paywall, will take excerpts from the article:

“Data published recently by the EU statistical office, Eurostat, reveals that about 2,250 UK citizens were ordered to leave EU countries between 2020 and September 2022. If we add the numbers for the countries of the European Free Trade Association (Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland), where EU free movement rules also apply, the total increases to 2,830.

After Sweden the Netherlands followed with 615 orders for Britons to leave. Norway and Switzerland issued 455 and 125 departure orders respectively.

While France was responsible for the highest proportion of leave orders to non-EU citizens, it is Sweden and the Netherlands that have taken the toughest approach to Brits.

Sweden is responsible for 1,050 of the 2,250 British nationalsordered to leave EU countries between the first quarter of 2020 and the third quarter of 2022.

Spain, which hosts the biggest UK community in the EU, has not ordered any Briton to leave the country since Brexit, and nor did Italy - at least according to the Eurostat data.

Anyone newly arriving or who did not meet the deadlines for applying for status under the terms of the withdrawal agreement, is now considered as a third country national and subject to domestic immigration controls in the EU-26 member states [the 27 EU countries minus Ireland“


Source:

https://www.thelocal.ch/20230104/rev...s-since-brexit