Canada just dropped significantly in UN ratings to 11th in HDI ratings; it's hard to compare Canada to Switzerland, you'd almost have to compare each province to Switzerland to get a fair comparison.

Forget about the UN. The thing I miss most is a good opera house like in Zuerich,basel ,st gallen ahh yes and zwibele waehe

This is true of Europe in general, not just Switzerland.

Tom

Ya, I'm starting to question their HDI country ratings when they rated Poland as a more developed country than Portugal and Greece as more developed than Andorra (in the Human development sense)...

they are also apparently more betterer at sarcasm. and that would be "than" and "whom", which might explain why my feeble attempt at taking the piss out of the poster that I quoted and their poor grammar went over your head.

angles canuk,me guess

Hi all,

Moving away from Canada is something that my girlfriend and I have started thinking about. Partly the reason for that is living in Toronto which absolutely sucks (we moved here about a year ago), but mostly it's because of the declining quality of life and constant increase in taxes.

We are both Ukrainian originally, been in Canada for 11-13 years. Both are Canadian citizens, educated in Canada with advanced degrees. I have a very good technical career in IT, starting to top out actually. My girlfriend is just starting her career, but her current job is still very good. We are in our early 30s, and are thinking about starting a family.

Don't get me wrong, we absolutely love Canada. It's really our home now. It is where we feel most comfortable. People are extremely nice, and they don't care what your last name is or what the colour of your skin is. Some would say that it's all fake. But I'll take a fake smile over genuine abuse any day.

So why are we looking to move then?

1) Taxes. Absolutely #1 reason. And it's not that they are high, it's the fact that we get nothing in return. My sister in Sweden and I pay exactly the same effective income tax rate, which is way over 40%. And no Canadian would ever dare to compare social services in Sweden to ones in Canada.

Canadians like to brag about the healthcare system. Mostly, again, to differentiate themselves from the Americans. The system is pretty ridiculous, if you ever had to actually deal with it. It's not because it's public or "free". It's because of how it's set up. But that's a separate topic.

Public transit is a joke, not just in Toronto. But in Toronto it's absolutely laughable. Traffic congestion in Toronto is documented to be one of the worst in the world.

You ask where is the money going? To all kinds of projects that just flush money down the toilet (eHealth, Pesto, gun registry) and overpaid unionized government employees.

2) Extra taxes: sales, airfare, property, land transfer, import, and it just keeps going. They are talking about introducing new ones to pay for infrastructure. People will say: you have those everywhere. Well, true, but usually the price you see is the price you pay. Not in Canada. Expect to pay sometimes double (like for an airfare) the price you actually see advertised. Once you actually add everything up, it's not that cheap to live here.

3) Public schools. Have been covered before in this thread so I'm not going to repeat that. One thing I'll say why i think those schools are so crappy is you have to see who becomes teachers. Usually the kids that couldn't make it in any real university program go to teachers' college. 1 year there, and bam: you have a new "fully qualified" teacher. Also see my comments above about the overpaid unionized government employees. What they don't get in vacation allowance (3 months a year) they compensate for with paid sick days, which get fully paid out even if you weren't sick.

But before your kids even go to school you have to be lucky to find a spot in daycare at $800-1400/month.

4) Toronto is an awful city to live in. It definitely has its pluses. But mostly it's not very nice. People are not as nice as in the rest of Canada, and are mostly pretentious, plastic and jealous of each other. There's no outdoors like you have out West. All you have is traffic, never ending condo construction and constant struggle to prove to your friends that you are better than them.

Maybe if Toronto didn't suck so badly, we wouldn't be thinking about moving. But Vancouver, Calgary and Montreal aren't exactly that much better. And you still have the taxes and government waste, just like in Ontario.


So that was for people thinking of moving to Canada. Now I have some questions about CH if you don't mind.

1) How realistic is it to find work in CH without German, French or Italian? I can probably pick French up within a couple of years, but I would still have to manage with only English during that time.
2) What is the real estate situation like? I heard that it's extremely hard to find an apartment for rent in Lausanne. Is that true for the rest of Switzerland? What about to buy, if you actually do have 20% down? For example in Canada they won't give you a mortgage if you come on a work visa. Can you get a mortgage in CH with Permit B?
3) Are people as "nationalistic" as in the rest of Europe? Even though I look, sound and behave like a Canadian (as opposed to a stereotypical Ukrainian/Russian), I still have a Ukrainian name. Would it be a problem to deal with people or make friends with the Swiss?
4) People talk a lot about the "Swiss mentality". What does that actually mean? Is it just bureaucracy and having to submit countless documents and notarized copies of everything, like in France for example? Or is it beyond that?
5) What is it like to have children in CH? What are social programs like? Health care, daycare, schools, family support, tax/monetary incentives?

Sorry about a long post. I would really appreciate some info about these things.

Thanks,

commiespy

Commiespy - THANK YOU!!

I thought it was just me that thought all these things about Toronto!

Taxes, condos and fakes. That's what you get here.

Commiespy, jobs-wise it's going to depend on your qualifications/experience. This is the situation for "third state" citizens and what employers have to do to be able to hire them:

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm/...zulassung.html

Basically, an employer here must hire a Swiss, EU citizen or someone else already living here who has a valid work permit if they can. Only if they can't find someone from these groups could an employer apply for a permit for you. Now, if your qualifications/experience are in demand or you can fill a gap in a niche market you're chances are very good. If not however, then it's going to be very difficult. Many international companies use English as their official office language, but if you can add French, German or both to the mix your chances are greater.

You can also have a look on this website: www.ch.ch which has more general info on living and working here. I also recommend you get hold of a copy of "Living and Working in Switzerland" by David Hampshire. It's a really useful book with lots of info and examples of costs. You can order via your local bookshop or on the internet.

Renting properties again depends on where you want to live. Lausanne itself is expensive and it's hard to find properties so looking to live further out will get you more for your money. You don't say if you'd prefer a house over an apartment; most people live in apartments here and rent too. House buying is not something the Swiss do as much as in other countries. But there are restrictions that apartment living bring that might not suit you. Set days and times for use of the communal laundry room as most apartments don't have their own washing/drying machines; not supposed to flush the toilet or have a bath/shower between 10pm and 7am - we still haven't worked out if this last is actually a law or myth. It is possible to find houses for rent, but they are very scarce.

You'll need a minimum of 20% deposit for purchasing a property. I don't think you, as "third country" citizens, would be allowed to buy a property straight away, you would have to be resident here for some years first.

I recommend that, if possible, you come here on an extended vacation of several weeks to see if you actually like the country, people, way of life etc. Switzerland isn't for everyone as you can read here:

Eventually Escaped...But Even That Was Painful!

Getting a taste of life here before you completely uproot your lives wil help you decide whether you could make a life for yourselves here. You can investigate the job markets for both of you, see how language or lack of it will affect this, etc.

The latest version of the book is out on April 28th. Bookdepository (UK based) ships free to Canada.

Link: http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Livi.../9781909282636

I like this book.. funny and true!

http://www.dicconbewes.com/about-the...swisswatching/

Link: http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Swis.../9781857885873

We are Canadian citizens and have recently moved to Switzerland. I had same question in my mind as discussed in this thread. Thank you everyone for sharing all this info. Interesting !

Okay, boys and girls... I've been living in Canada, Vancouver (and Victoria) since 2008 and here is what I can tell you..

Move here if you:

1) can make at least 90-100K or more per year - depending of your family size. A single person without issues can probably make less and still having not a bad life. Life in Vancouver is probably as expensive, as in Geneva. The difference is very small. Renting is almost identical. Average new Canadian 2-story house is around +1M CAD in Vancouver (depending on location) - don't forget that it's made of wooden frame, plywood and siding. Some stuff here are cheaper than in Swiss (like food), but it's a pretty much the same price's level for everything. So, money is a very essential component for a good life in B.C. Also don't forget that in average we pay 42% taxes. - i.e. 30% (average income tax+pension+employment insurance) and then every good's purchase is taxed at 12%. If you work for yourself or run own business (and have a good bookeeper!) - you can save on some taxes and write off some stuff, but not much really...

2) love wild nature, Ocean (SCUBA diving over here is AMAZING!), mountains, hikes, pines, bears, hedgehogs, driving big 4WD pickup trucks, yachting, kayaking, hunting and fishing. Here you can do everything - i.e. SCUBA dive in the morning and then ski in the afternoon. If you're an outdoor-minded person - Canada, B.C. can offer it all to you. Of course if you make enough money (see the the#1) :P

Canadians are mostly open, friendly and not very xenophobic people. In small towns they can look at you with an interest and ask where is your accent coming from, but usually that's all. Within 7+ years I never ever had a problem with any criminal here (but it present of course).

Don't come to Canada B.C. if you hate rain and overcast. Local winter is around +10C, cloudy and rain, rain, rain, rain... Days and weeks in a row... However because of this HUGE amount of rain - Pacific Northwest rainforest is simply amazing and full of life! It looks like a fairy tales one.. Summers are gorgeous last few years - good weather is May-June to September and even mid of October, sometimes.

Don't come here is you don't like American lifestyle and maybe values. It's Canada and it's different, but it's still North America and USA influence is a huge thing here.

If you want to see some pictures - here they are: https://picasaweb.google.com/108113031411791763124

No place is perfect. Each city has its own issues.

Hi Captain, so after 7 years in BC, Canada vs Switzerland which one would you prefer if you could freely make a choice?

They both good places each one in its own way... I'd say move to:

• Canada, B.C. - if you prefer to live an outdoor lifestyle. The wild nature is simply amazing here.
• Switzerland - if you prefer to live European lifestyle and make money

Thanks for reply, after spending few years in Quebec I tend to think of European lifestyle more and more. And of European distances. Money would be a good bonus too