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  #41  
Old 13.06.2011, 20:53
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

But you must be a resident in CH to avail yourself of Exit support. As said must check for how long. My friend intends to join using my CH address now, just as an 'insurance'.
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  #42  
Old 13.06.2011, 23:33
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

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But you must be a resident in CH to avail yourself of Exit support. As said must check for how long. My friend intends to join using my CH address now, just as an 'insurance'.
yes that is true. never thought bout that being swiss resident since 31 years.
Report with sir terry was quite tuff... don't know if I want to die in an ugly blue house and behind a toyota garage... on the other hand, I'm healthy at the moment and got nothing to fear. maybe I will change my mind at one point...
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Old 13.06.2011, 23:41
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

A brave man, a sad story, a happy ending.

Now what about the opponents on Newsnight afterwards ? Selfish idiots, misguided fools or what ?
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  #44  
Old 14.06.2011, 00:03
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

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yes that is true. never thought bout that being swiss resident since 31 years.
Report with sir terry was quite tuff... don't know if I want to die in an ugly blue house and behind a toyota garage... on the other hand, I'm healthy at the moment and got nothing to fear. maybe I will change my mind at one point...
If you are a member of Exit- you would be able to choose to die in your own home, your own garden, your own bed or favourite settee- with your loved ones or family- or not if you think that might be better- around you. I am so sad that British people facing terminal illness do NOT have that choice at the moment.
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Old 14.06.2011, 00:04
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

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A brave man, a sad story, a happy ending.

Now what about the opponents on Newsnight afterwards ? Selfish idiots, misguided fools or what ?
A very difficult question - no time to even formulate an answer tonight.
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  #46  
Old 14.06.2011, 11:44
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

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Now what about the opponents on Newsnight afterwards ? Selfish idiots, misguided fools or what ?
A failed debate which never got going. Poorly facilitated by the normally good Paxman. Here's an example. A pro assisted suicide camper said all she was asking was for changes in the law to allow the terminally ill the option of assisted suicide in the UK. A wheelchair bound anti-euthanasia camper responded by questioning the need to change laws to accommodate a minority. Quite a statement coming from a disabled person who (quite rightly) benefits from laws to protect the interests of her minority. Paxman should've been all over that.
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  #47  
Old 14.06.2011, 12:12
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

As a member of Exit who passionately believes we should have the choice- I felt very uncomfortable with the 2 'cases' (people) shown in the film, as I truly felt they were not 'ready'. But that is the awful thing- if a person has to travel over, lets say from UK, then they just have to do this 'too' early- because otherwise it is very likely to be too late.

I feel truly privileged that as a Swiss (although membership is opened to all Swiss residents) I am able to be a member of Exit- which would allow me to choose to be supported over quite a long period of time in my own home- and that ultimately I could choose to die in my own home. As expressed in the documentary, just being a member is a huge relief and a wonderful insurance policy. I am in good health, and love life to the full. Should I ever be faced with a terrible disease or infirmity, I know I would fight like hell- but in the end, I wouldn't want to hang around past a certain stage. No idea at the mo where the line would be- but I have a good idea.

Sadly, even in CH, and even as a member of Exit- Alzheimers or any form of dementia poses real problems- and would force a person to 'depart' at the very early stages- as again, waiting is likely to mean that it would be too late. One has to be of clear and sound mind to be helped. The biggest challenge for Exit to date. Do you know that many EMS (old people's homes) refuse to allow Exit to help members who are residents? This was the case for my mother, and sadly we still lived in the UK, so I couldn't help her (she died 2 weeks before we moved here).
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Old 14.06.2011, 12:25
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

does exit have a website etc for how to join?
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  #49  
Old 14.06.2011, 13:05
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

www.exit.ch

The more members, the more clout the association has, and the more resources for research, legal support and of course, personal support for members. As said, I am in rude health, but I feel it is important that your GP, legal advisor/sollicitor, children, OH, family and friends- know how you feel on the subject- to help them make decisions in a crisis/accident or in case of terminal/debilitating disease. If you make your decision in 'principle' when still fit and active, I believe it carries more weight in the event.
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Old 14.06.2011, 14:05
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

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As a member of Exit who passionately believes we should have the choice- I felt very uncomfortable with the 2 'cases' (people) shown in the film, as I truly felt they were not 'ready'. But that is the awful thing- if a person has to travel over, lets say from UK, then they just have to do this 'too' early- because otherwise it isl very likely to be too late.
Exactly.

Prior to watching I was very much pro assisted suicide. But those two men had many months, if not years, of useful life ahead of them. The sytem requires the patient to be of sound mind and capable of taking the poison themslves unassisted, so both would have been both incapable by the time they really needed release...
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  #51  
Old 14.06.2011, 20:22
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

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As a member of Exit who passionately believes we should have the choice- I felt very uncomfortable with the 2 'cases' (people) shown in the film, as I truly felt they were not 'ready'. But that is the awful thing- if a person has to travel over, lets say from UK, then they just have to do this 'too' early- because otherwise it is very likely to be too late.
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Exactly. Prior to watching I was very much pro assisted suicide. But those two men had many months, if not years, of useful life ahead of them. The sytem requires the patient to be of sound mind and capable of taking the poison themslves unassisted, so both would have been both incapable by the time they really needed release...
This was precisely the point made by the Swiss doctor who independently assessed the dying man who's suicide Pratchett witnessed. She participated in the Paxman discussion and said, had the man been a Swiss resident, she would have sent him home to enjoy Christmas and his birthday because she felt he was ending his life prematurely. But she gave the go ahead because she felt if she did send him home to the UK, she was afraid that he might not have been able to make it back to Switzerland under his own steam, thereby depriving him of the choice he was seeking. The big point made by Debbie Purdy and the pro assisted suicide camp was that the present legal regime in the UK is leading terminally ill people to end their lives prematurely whilst they are still capable of travelling abroad.

The other point this doctor tried to make before she was stonewalled by the anti camp was that the number of people electing for assisted suicide is very, very small and in no way should downplay the commitment and support needed for those go into palliative care. The numbers certainly don't amount to "tourism". Unfortunately her comments fell on deaf ears.
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  #52  
Old 14.06.2011, 21:30
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

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As a member of Exit who passionately believes we should have the choice- I felt very uncomfortable with the 2 'cases' (people) shown in the film, as I truly felt they were not 'ready'. But that is the awful thing- if a person has to travel over, lets say from UK, then they just have to do this 'too' early- because otherwise it is very likely to be too late.

I feel truly privileged that as a Swiss (although membership is opened to all Swiss residents) I am able to be a member of Exit- which would allow me to choose to be supported over quite a long period of time in my own home- and that ultimately I could choose to die in my own home. As expressed in the documentary, just being a member is a huge relief and a wonderful insurance policy. I am in good health, and love life to the full. Should I ever be faced with a terrible disease or infirmity, I know I would fight like hell- but in the end, I wouldn't want to hang around past a certain stage. No idea at the mo where the line would be- but I have a good idea.

Sadly, even in CH, and even as a member of Exit- Alzheimers or any form of dementia poses real problems- and would force a person to 'depart' at the very early stages- as again, waiting is likely to mean that it would be too late. One has to be of clear and sound mind to be helped. The biggest challenge for Exit to date. Do you know that many EMS (old people's homes) refuse to allow Exit to help members who are residents? This was the case for my mother, and sadly we still lived in the UK, so I couldn't help her (she died 2 weeks before we moved here).
About "Do you know that many EMS (old people's homes) refuse to allow Exit to help members who are residents?" Do they give reasons?
I suppose nobody wants to lose a good customer?
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  #53  
Old 15.06.2011, 08:59
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

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This was precisely the point made by the Swiss doctor who independently assessed the dying man who's suicide Pratchett witnessed. She participated in the Paxman discussion and said, had the man been a Swiss resident, she would have sent him home to enjoy Christmas and his birthday because she felt he was ending his life prematurely. But she gave the go ahead because she felt if she did send him home to the UK, she was afraid that he might not have been able to make it back to Switzerland under his own steam, thereby depriving him of the choice he was seeking. The big point made by Debbie Purdy and the pro assisted suicide camp was that the present legal regime in the UK is leading terminally ill people to end their lives prematurely whilst they are still capable of travelling abroad.

The other point this doctor tried to make before she was stonewalled by the anti camp was that the number of people electing for assisted suicide is very, very small and in no way should downplay the commitment and support needed for those go into palliative care. The numbers certainly don't amount to "tourism". Unfortunately her comments fell on deaf ears.
Another noteworthy comment made by the Swiss Doctor, was that she would not be able to offer assisted suicide to someone such as the Down's Syndrome daughter of the Cleric who was part of the Panel, because under the law, the young woman would not be considered capable of making such a decision for herself "capacité de discernement".
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  #54  
Old 15.06.2011, 09:29
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

Marton, the old people's home my mum was in was lovely and very small (only 12) and there is a long waiting list, with vacant places filled very quickly. The 'Directrice' is a born again Christian who has suffered from cancer in the past and lost her husband very young. She therefore feels that life is sacred. Several on the Management panel feel the same, so it was voted onto the statutes. Many other EMS have made the same decision. Exit is trying to change this. For my poor mum, I would have had to take her home for Exit to help her (she had been a member for decades)- but I lived in the UK. As said she died 2 weeks before we moved here- blind, wheel-chair bound and having given up the fight.
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Old 15.06.2011, 09:43
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

This will always be a difficult situation. On one hand, you have the person who is able to make her/his wishes known and when the time comes, is able to choose that too, pretty much.

I think about this alot, having had both of my parents in hospice, and actually at one point, asked my father if he wanted to be taken off the ventialtor - he said no, but wanted to be able to change his mind. Several months later, now off the vent, he called us up and told us it was time. He died in hospice ten days later, of kidney failure. I feel that with my father, we were able to let him die pretty much as he wanted. My mother died at home, also with hospice, but because everyone was to freaked out to talk about her death (this was 20 years ago) before it was almost too late,

Since I've been diagnosed with cancer, I think about options such as exit, although I'm skirting those issues right now - it feels a bit like hipocracy, but with a good prognosis and trying to get through my first round of treatments - it also feels appropriate.

A friend of mine died of cancer in the Netherlands last year - she set the time and place- her own bed - and because of the the system there, it was possible. It was also the case that if she had decided not to do this, she would have lasted less than a week otherwise.

But anyway, I've read a lot and talked to people engaged in palliative care, which is underused in the US, at least. Haven't had experience with it here (and I rather hope I won't for a good long time). One of the findings that keeps coming back is that when people are treated for pain and depression, they are less willing to commit suicide. Hospice also has a bad name. Palliative care is more cost-effective over the long run too.

So, I think these need to be explored more. It's a difficult topic though and people seem to have such black and white views, but there rarely is a clear line separating life and death. And end of life health care doesn't have the glamor or the funding like keeping people alive.... although a good death is not a failure of the medical system.

I think medically-assisted end of life (I hate suicide) can be reasonable and compassionate. But it's in serious need of reframing, and I guess, g*d help me, some really good PR sorts of attention.

Now this says nothing of the person who can no longer communicate, especially people with Altzheimer's or dementia or other disorders. Can we know if they're in pain? Depressed? How do we know? So it ends up that people die prematurely or too late, as Odlie said. It's a quandry. I guess it also suggests that you do need to plan for your death, and make sure someone can get you out of the EMS before it's too late (she says, cynically).
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Old 15.06.2011, 11:17
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

Ok, after reading some of these stanzas for and against assisted suicide I'd like to forward the rational explanation as to why it should not be as easy as pie to shove your loved one or yourself off this mortal coil:-

1. We need legislation, laws terms and conditions, stringent ones, because if you haven't noticed by now, there are loads of nutters out there willing to abuse any system
2. We can't have manic depressives pushing the button every 5 minutes, remember there are individuals out there with severe mental problems who would gladly do this sort of thing just for the notoriety
3. Consent, obviously a big one especially if large estates are involved, does right of attorney give you right over the life of another? Isn’t that slavery? How do you accurately judge quality of another’s life? if someone is suffering from 'locked in syndrome' and cannot communicate, how do you really know they want this?
4. Brain washing, in 1995 the heavens gate cult all willingly consented to commit mass suicide to gain entrance to an 'Alien spaceship following Hale-Bopp comet' should we condone these actions and facilitate them also?
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Old 15.06.2011, 12:16
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

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Ok, after reading some of these stanzas for and against assisted suicide I'd like to forward the rational explanation as to why it should not be as easy as pie to shove your loved one or yourself off this mortal coil:-[/FONT][/COLOR]
I don't think anybody would argue with the you in terms of the need for controls. As far as I'm aware, in no country where assisted suicide is legal is it as easy as pie and free from controls, neither are campaigners calling for it to be so. Soundness of mind and freedom of will are key evaluation criteria.
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Old 15.06.2011, 12:47
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

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Ok, after reading some of these stanzas for and against assisted suicide I'd like to forward the rational explanation as to why it should not be as easy as pie to shove your loved one or yourself off this mortal coil:-

1. We need legislation, laws terms and conditions, stringent ones, because if you haven't noticed by now, there are loads of nutters out there willing to abuse any system
2. We can't have manic depressives pushing the button every 5 minutes, remember there are individuals out there with severe mental problems who would gladly do this sort of thing just for the notoriety
3. Consent, obviously a big one especially if large estates are involved, does right of attorney give you right over the life of another? Isn’t that slavery? How do you accurately judge quality of another’s life? if someone is suffering from 'locked in syndrome' and cannot communicate, how do you really know they want this?
4. Brain washing, in 1995 the heavens gate cult all willingly consented to commit mass suicide to gain entrance to an 'Alien spaceship following Hale-Bopp comet' should we condone these actions and facilitate them also?

No one is discounting the need for controls, legislation and so forth.

I've worked with palliative care and hospice workers personally and professionally and have not seen "loads of nutters" quite the contrary, I've seen mostly caring people who don't want to push buttons and be rid of folk. Some of the most sane people I know in health care. THe nutters are in other specialties. But that's also why I think that palliative care needs to more emphasized in health care in general. It's not as sexy as "manic depressives pushing buttons", though, is it? That's the stuff of Hollywood and crime fiction.

As for the thing with big estates, etc - there have always been greedy family members wanting to pack off their more affluent relatives. I don't think you need assisted suicide for this. And there will always be depressed/crazy/guileable people who are looking for an out.

We're talking about a very specific subgroup of individuals - people with serious health concerns who are terminally ill. I think this has little to do with hale bopp or whatever else. People will try to make a slippery slope of this, but IMHO, there is a clear line of division.
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Old 15.06.2011, 13:06
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

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No one is discounting the need for controls, legislation and so forth.

I've worked with palliative care and hospice workers personally and professionally and have not seen "loads of nutters" quite the contrary, I've seen mostly caring people who don't want to push buttons and be rid of folk. Some of the most sane people I know in health care. THe nutters are in other specialties. But that's also why I think that palliative care needs to more emphasized in health care in general. It's not as sexy as "manic depressives pushing buttons", though, is it? That's the stuff of Hollywood and crime fiction.

As for the thing with big estates, etc - there have always been greedy family members wanting to pack off their more affluent relatives. I don't think you need assisted suicide for this. And there will always be depressed/crazy/guileable people who are looking for an out.

We're talking about a very specific subgroup of individuals - people with serious health concerns who are terminally ill. I think this has little to do with hale bopp or whatever else. People will try to make a slippery slope of this, but IMHO, there is a clear line of division.
Well done on successfully dodging all my questions.
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Old 15.06.2011, 14:01
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Re: Swiss to tackle 'suicide tourism'

Johny you need to study the way Exit works in CH, and you will see that it is very closely regulated and your questions tackled and answered.
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