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  #181  
Old 16.11.2009, 22:31
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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I just hope that restaurants and bars don't end up closed due to this ban!
I am almost sure that almost none will be closed, some even may profit from the new law. While some of course will suffer. Many places will establish better outside facilities than in the past. You will see better coverings outside, better chairs and tables, more things to ward off winds, etc. Because, while service for the fumoirs will be restricted, service for the outdoor areas will not be restricted ! You can be sure that the gastronomes knew this at least as well as I do !




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You lot have got what you wanted in most countries but still you stay at home

so all the pubs are empty and the people are signing on!!
The non-smokers are not staying at home, and will in future get into places where they abstain from now. And the smokers will not really stay at home to the extent you forecast. Swiss smokers just as non-smokers are used to outside-gastro-places, in the mountains, on lakes and in swimming places around the lakes. Restaurant-gardens in Switzerland have a long tradition.

No Sir, the pubs will NOT be empty !

Last edited by Wollishofener; 16.11.2009 at 22:45.
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  #182  
Old 16.11.2009, 22:38
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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It isn't going to happen and more and more places will go bust!
It IS a problem for some Sheesha places, but many of them already in the past started to separate the "Sheesha section" from the rest. And when you are out for a Sheesha (very expensive in Zurich places, while my private Sheesha on my balcony is far more economical), you simply can buy something to drink and take it with you to the Sheesh'oir !

That some places may go bust is natural. Places went bust in the past and will do so in the future.



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OK, maybe the UK is unique. In the States this has not become a problem.
As I said after a few months the transition is over and things move forward. The bars and other social venues are still there. They may be mildly different but there would be some change even if there was no Ban.

Unfortunately a lot of the change is correlative and not causal. It doesn't stop it from being unpleasant to the owners of the places that close. But it doesn't mean that closings wouldn't have happened anyway.

Besides, I observed something else happening in the UK over the past 20 years. I remember 15 or more years ago one could go into a restaurant and not suffocate due to smoke inhalation. Then slowly, over time, it got worse and worse, until I couldn't go into hardly any restaurants. One couldn't even walk into a pub without reeking. I don't know what happened but it wasn't good for me and I wasn't trying to hang out in bars or night clubs or what have you. I was a tourist in the UK just trying to have a decent meal. I didn't know what had changed and to be honest I didn't care. Maybe the cigarettes changed. Maybe the double glazing got better. Who knows? What I do know is that my quality of life went into the toilet and smokers and servers didn't care. (and they spoke english )

When a segment of the population is marginalised through no fault of their own they push back. If there had been an attempt at rapprochement then things would probably be different. I would have been happier as I wouldn't have had to suffer through years of pain for the privilege of being able to go out and eat in public. I guess if you don't understand then I can't change your mind. But take it from me, reasonable behaviour at the outset would have been the best solution.

Good Luck,
Brian.

I suppose that it was the same in the U.K. as in Switzerland. In the 1950ies to early 1990ies the share of smokers gradually went down, BUT after the mid 1990ies their share heavily increased. There since the 1950ies never was as much smoking in restaurants, pubs, bars, cafés, etc than right now. I some 10 years ago was informed about this trend by a cousin who was teacher in a "Technische Berufs-Schule" (technical school for professionals in education) and who had to deal with all this daily.




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People opened non smoking restaurants. what happened, no one used them, so they closed!
Non-smoking restaurants ? Where ? I in Zurich never met such a place. And what kind of restaurants were they ? Possibly also without alcohol ??

Last edited by Wollishofener; 16.11.2009 at 22:58.
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  #183  
Old 16.11.2009, 23:09
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Stop burying your head in the sand. How many pubs need to close before you dogooders realise that all you are doing is putting people on the dole!
You are victim of some misunderstanding. The upgrading of outside facilities, the new chairs, the new tables, the windshades to be established, the many improvements to be done, the new coverings of the outside places, the new fumoirs / Sheesha'oirs, new structures, new ideas to be implemented, all this will cost money and will put some people on the dole, but at the same time will create jobs in a big way.

True, an important aspect will be the state bureaucracy which already in the past by its restrictive stances against outdoors gastronomy ruined jobs in big numbers. But I hope that those office-stallions will be kept at bay by public pressure.
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  #184  
Old 17.11.2009, 09:51
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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You lot have got what you wanted in most countries but still you stay at home

so all the pubs are empty and the people are signing on!!
Where I am right now, in Canada, 22% of the population 15 and over smokes. Before we got the smoking ban in 2001 in Toronto, there were only a handful of pubs/restaurant that were smoke-free, and they were always so full, you had to wait an hour or longer for a table and they were all downtown.

After the smoking ban, there must have been a month or two of slowing business, after which, like the rest of the world, business went back to normal. In addition to the "normal" people, people like me that have breathing problems starting going out to pubs and spending money.

To put it in perspective.. Turkey managed to do fine with the smoking ban and 60% of men and 20% of women there smoke. In fact, the vast majority of the country was in favour of the ban.

I know people that are 18- and 19-year olds in Toronto that can't imagine why anyone would ever smoke indoors. Some of these kids are smokers or come from families where a parent or both smoke, just never indoors. It's just a different way of seeing it. By smoking outdoors in a well-ventilated area, people are taking responsibility for themselves, and accepting any risks that may entail for themselves - as is their right. The second they step into a closed environment however, especially one where people are employed, then it starts negatively affecting other people's health and that's understandably something people may want to prevent.
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  #185  
Old 18.11.2009, 13:00
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

Whatever happened to Democracy???... A restaurant/bar/pub/etc. is a private business, and the owner/investors should be the one(s) to decide what's best for their establishment and what works... If in a neighborhood there are 5 non-smoking restaurants that are making a killing and one smoking that barely survives (granted that the food/service/etc. is as good as the others), then what do you think that a smart business man would do?!
You are all just jumping on the "dictatorial laws" band-wagon, not realizing that this will be only one of the many to come... I have moved here to enjoy the freedoms and the minimal "Fed's" involvement in my personal life... looks like it won't last.
I am a smoker and I like smoking! It is a personal choice! I try to be considerate of the non ones... most often than not, they are the inconsiderate ones...
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  #186  
Old 18.11.2009, 13:46
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Whatever happened to Democracy???... A restaurant/bar/pub/etc. is a private business, and the owner/investors should be the one(s) to decide what's best for their establishment and what works... If in a neighborhood there are 5 non-smoking restaurants that are making a killing and one smoking that barely survives (granted that the food/service/etc. is as good as the others), then what do you think that a smart business man would do?!
You are all just jumping on the "dictatorial laws" band-wagon, not realizing that this will be only one of the many to come... I have moved here to enjoy the freedoms and the minimal "Fed's" involvement in my personal life... looks like it won't last.
I am a smoker and I like smoking! It is a personal choice! I try to be considerate of the non ones... most often than not, they are the inconsiderate ones...
This is democracy...the laws were voted on, by the public, in a referendum.

What sort of democracy did you have in mind when you moved here?

Last edited by Tom1234; 18.11.2009 at 14:59. Reason: spelling
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  #187  
Old 18.11.2009, 14:27
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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This is democracy...the laws were voted on, by the public, in a referendum.

Wha sort of democracy did you have in mind when you moved here?
They wanted the one where things they don't want regulated don't get regulated. In other words the one that doesn't restrict their behaviour.

If smokers wanted to keep their right to smoke unchecked then they should have kept to the behaviour they had in the 1980s. Instead, enough smokers insisted on exercising their right to their habit in places that aren't appropriate and discomfited enough people that finally the people spoke and now it is regulated. Notice, I didn't say banned or outlawed as smokers still have the right to smoke.

Sounds like a democracy to me. I like to drive over 200kph and have never had an accident or even an incident over 30kph in my life. I should have the right to drive fast as I am capable of it. Do I expect this? H3ll, no! Speed limits are there to protect those who aren't as competent, guard against bad judgement and make money. Hopefully in that order. But that is another Thread.

They have the thing that they want. They said they wanted Democracy. They are reaping the results of past behaviour in said Democracy. Yet still, they complain. Doesn't sound very realistic to me.

Or look at this from another viewpoint. Would anyone support the use of any drug that was required to be aspirated in a non controlled fashion. Especially if this was done in public places in close proximity to other people when you don't know the health requirements of those people? This is what smoking is. We wouldn't let any other drug be used like this and yet smoking is still legal. Seems to me that maybe smokers should be less vocal before others (lawmakers) realise that it constitutes unrestricted and uncontrolled drug usage. You know what would happen then.

Good Luck,
Brian.
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  #188  
Old 18.11.2009, 14:34
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Me too, and you are worrying me , on a slightly more serious note though, I am glad finally the ban is comming. Especially because I think it is really uncomfortable to be eating (in a restaurant) while people smoke close to you
Would you mind not eating while I smoke ?!?!

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Or rather, from now till May 2010, smokers should show non-smokers how inconsiderate they can be by blowing all the smoke straight into their face. After all, there is nothing they can do since they will get to enjoy smoke free premises from May next year

Oh yes, we will show how uncivilized we are...
In the Yew Kay, where there often was segregation for smokers, I always thought a good strategy to keep the stink of fags off clothes and hair would be for all the non-smokers to occupy the smoking section.
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  #189  
Old 18.11.2009, 15:47
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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I am a smoker and I like smoking! It is a personal choice!
Well, that and the whole being a nicotine addict thing.
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  #190  
Old 18.11.2009, 17:55
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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This is democracy...the laws were voted on, by the public, in a referendum.

What sort of democracy did you have in mind when you moved here?
Will you be so kind as to point me to the link showing that referendum vote?
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  #191  
Old 18.11.2009, 17:57
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Well, that and the whole being a nicotine addict thing.
Yes, I am... your point being?!
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  #192  
Old 18.11.2009, 18:11
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Will you be so kind as to point me to the link showing that referendum vote?
There is a federal law, but as of June 2009, all but 5 cantons have banned smoking in public places. You're welcome to consult the websites of every canton to see the voting results. In Geneva, for example, people recently voted 81% in favor of the smoking ban.
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Yes, I am... your point being?!
Just messing with you.
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  #193  
Old 18.11.2009, 18:15
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

Ignored by most:

Enormous German study on passive smoke, cancer and cardiovascular disease says: >NO CONNECTION< - This milestone study published by the American Journal of Epidemiology has been thoroughly ignored by the public health gangs and its media servants! The enormous study covers 37 years, during which thousands of filght attendans have been followed and monitored for cancer. Furthermore, this is not a study based on questionnaires asking whether uncle Jack smoked more or less in 1956, as it's the case for most antismoking junk science -- nor it is something started and finished in a few months. Finally, it is neither financed by the tobacco industry, the pharmaceutical industry, nor is it supported by "public health" funds allocated to produce scientific frauds to support public health's frauds on smoking. All that explains the results. Here is an excerpt that says it all:

"We found a rather remarkably low SMR [standardized incidence ratio] for lung cancer among female cabin attendants and no increase for male cabin attendants, indicating that smoking and exposure to passive smoking may not play an important role in mortality in this group. Smoking during airplane flights was permitted in Germany until the mid-1990s. The risk of cardiovascular disease mortality for male and female air crew was surprisingly low (reaching statistical significance among women)."

The word "surprisingly" even betrays the expectation of the researchers that passive smoke hurts - quite indicative of today's superstitions induced by the antismoking frauds: but the results betray politics. In spite of all the USSR-like suppression of positive information by the "public health" gangsters, therefore, more evidence that the nearly universal smoking bans on passenger airlines is unjustified comes from researchers who examined the specific health risks associated with working in commercial aviation. None of the studies on secondhand smoke have ever demonstrated the epidemiological existence of a risk.
http://www.data-yard.net/39/cabin.pdf
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  #194  
Old 18.11.2009, 18:15
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Will you be so kind as to point me to the link showing that referendum vote?
Here's a link to a news story about it in the Zurich area.
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  #195  
Old 18.11.2009, 18:39
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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I am a smoker and I like smoking! It is a personal choice! I try to be considerate of the non ones... most often than not, they are the inconsiderate ones...

No one said you can't smoke... they just said that you can't smoke where someone else HAS to be in order to earn their living.
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  #196  
Old 18.11.2009, 18:44
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Whatever happened to Democracy???... A restaurant/bar/pub/etc. is a private business, and the owner/investors should be the one(s) to decide what's best for their establishment and what works... If in a neighborhood there are 5 non-smoking restaurants that are making a killing and one smoking that barely survives (granted that the food/service/etc. is as good as the others), then what do you think that a smart business man would do?!
You are all just jumping on the "dictatorial laws" band-wagon, not realizing that this will be only one of the many to come... I have moved here to enjoy the freedoms and the minimal "Fed's" involvement in my personal life... looks like it won't last.
I am a smoker and I like smoking! It is a personal choice! I try to be considerate of the non ones... most often than not, they are the inconsiderate ones...
Restaurants/Pubs/Bars/Cafés are private companies but PUBLIC space. And the smoking ban was not a decision by the government but by the people. This is democracy at work. The owners are not the people, but the voters are.

And you can continue smoking in outdoors places like this one here :





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Will you be so kind as to point me to the link showing that referendum vote?
It was not a referendum but an initiative which resulted in a public vote. The official result can be seen HERE in position 4 :
www.wahlen.zh.ch/abstimmungen/2008_09_28/

Last edited by Wollishofener; 18.11.2009 at 18:58.
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  #197  
Old 18.11.2009, 18:46
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Ignored by most:

Enormous German study on passive smoke, cancer and cardiovascular disease says: >NO CONNECTION< -

(removed the blah blah blah whole bunch of junk I don't care about )

I do not require anyone's study to tell me that smoking is bad - or that your smoking does or doesn't hurt me.

I already know just by the fact that it makes it hard for me to breathe simply by walking down the street behind someone who is smoking. This is even in the open air!

I'd welcome you to a trade of lungs - except that I don't want YOURS I want some healthy ones - just so you can see what it is like to be me having to deal with "your" smoke.
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Old 18.11.2009, 18:53
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Restaurants/Pubs/Bars/Cafés are private companies but PUBLIC space. And the smoking ban was not a decision by the government but by the people. This is democracy at work. The owners are not the people, but the voters are.



It was not a referendum but an initiative which resulted in a public vote. The official result can be seen HERE in position 4 :
www.wahlen.zh.ch/abstimmungen/2008_09_28/
So if the people wan't to put a public footpath through my house, that would be OK because the people decided and the fact that I own the property has nothing to do with it?
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Old 18.11.2009, 19:05
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Restaurants/Pubs/Bars/Cafés are private companies but PUBLIC space. And the smoking ban was not a decision by the government but by the people. This is democracy at work. The owners are not the people, but the voters are.

It was not a referendum but an initiative which resulted in a public vote. The official result can be seen HERE in position 4 :
www.wahlen.zh.ch/abstimmungen/2008_09_28/
Do I detect a wee bit of economy with the ol' vérité, Mr. Wollishofener?

IIRC, the trigger for the whole thing was not concern for a passive-smoking
public; rather, this was a component of the EC Bilaterals that have to be
implemented for continuing friendship with EC-land.

Hence the "happy coincidence" that the effective date of the kantonal
law coincides with the effective date of the federal law.

Oder?

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So if the people wan't to put a public footpath through my house, that would be OK because the people decided and the fact that I own the property has nothing to do with it?
Depends on the staff who work on your footpath - the original
"rationale", shall we say, was protection of employees...

.
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Old 18.11.2009, 19:06
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Ignored by most:

Enormous German study on passive smoke, cancer and cardiovascular disease says: >NO CONNECTION< - This milestone study published by the American Journal of Epidemiology has been thoroughly ignored by the public health gangs and its media servants!
Exact reference please?

Did it include people working in bars who are getting smoked several hours a day?
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