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  #241  
Old 28.12.2009, 23:49
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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the smoking ban is a joke. Here in VD it has been for a while now. the bars smell like ass.

Old beer, puke, ****, and crap on the floor the smoke used to cover up....

Im all for bans in restaurants and such. or bars with or without smoking.

As for smokers being uncivilized....maybe you should crawl back into your hole and stay there. There is plenty of non smoking areas
I do not visit bars where there is puke and crap on the floor. The idea of the smoking ban exactly is that bars, cafés and restaurant become non smoking areas
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  #242  
Old 28.12.2009, 23:54
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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And on another note. h\ave zou seen how many businesses have lost money. so much all small restaurants are turning into dirty bars now. mmmm so much for evolution.

"all small restaurants are turning into dirty bars" ?? Where ? Why ?

A few years ago, unsuccessful small restaurants became McDonald's
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  #243  
Old 29.12.2009, 00:09
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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"all small restaurants are turning into dirty bars" ?? Where ? Why ?

A few years ago, unsuccessful small restaurants became McDonald's

Cause restaurants make most of their profit on alcohol sales. Now in Belgium for example you can still smoke if you dont serve food....they now lose all the money on the little snacks they so overly priced sell (but they are well worth the money....)
As for the restaurants and lounges are losing the customers who just wanted to come in for a drink. I do not get your mac D point at all but anyways,

Im all for the ban in restaurants and malls and such, but not the bars

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I do not visit bars where there is puke and crap on the floor. The idea of the smoking ban exactly is that bars, cafés and restaurant become non smoking areas

Well if you visit the older bars with nice old wooden floor, not the new lounge crap things. these floors have some smells engraved in them which you would not smell otherwise cause of the smoke, which I believe smells much better.

Have you been in a non smoking bar so far. go to the toilet once to pee, if you are in luck someone just left the pooper.....or in the club where everyone has been dancing the night away.......yes people smell horrible in an overfull club.

I dont know if you ever cleaned out a tap, as in the equipent lines, smells truly disgusting.

But I guess for the non smokers they would prefer to smell that than the great aroma sigarets leave behind compared to that....

like this discussion tho

Last edited by vwild1; 31.03.2010 at 19:00. Reason: merged 2 successive posts into 1
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  #244  
Old 29.12.2009, 00:33
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

So it's good to allow smoking as it allows landlords to be lazy and not remove all the other vile smells in their premises? Not the best argument I've come across.
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  #245  
Old 29.12.2009, 00:39
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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So it's good to allow smoking as it allows landlords to be lazy and not remove all the other vile smells in their premises? Not the best argument I've come across.
What ?????

How do you get rid of the smell of sweat, or crap, or old beer??? its a bar or Club it isnt like at home where you just spray a bit and it is gone.... its a bar and it should stay a bar

In any case there isnt an in between in this issue so we all can argue till whenever.....so ill just lay it to rest now
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  #246  
Old 29.12.2009, 08:22
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Cause restaurants make most of their profit on alcohol sales. Now in Belgium for example you can still smoke if you dont serve food....they now lose all the money on the little snacks they so overly priced sell (but they are well worth the money....)
As for the restaurants and lounges are losing the customers who just wanted to come in for a drink. I do not get your mac D point at all but anyways,

Im all for the ban in restaurants and malls and such, but not the bars
The Belgian example is indeed strange, I admit. Here, the restaurants and lounges will not be losing customers who just wanted to come for a drink.

And the fact that many restaurants turned away "drinks-only" customers at eating times, and some find out that more money can be done by converting to a bar is obvious, but has nothing to do with the smoking ban. The smoking ban is particularily important in case of the bars. Many were smoke-filled, in case of less than 35% smoking. And to spare them would ruin many restaurants.
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  #247  
Old 29.12.2009, 09:28
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

As a former smoker who stayed in Singapore, NZ and India when they brought in the smoking bans, I would like to thank the legislators. I would never have given up if they hadn't made it so awkward to enjoy a cigarette.

I have nothing against smokers and often enjoy the odd waft that passes by, but now when I come home I stink of cigarratte smoke and now realise how i must have smelt all the time....ugh.
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  #248  
Old 30.12.2009, 01:19
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Well if you visit the older bars with nice old wooden floor, not the new lounge crap things. these floors have some smells engraved in them which you would not smell otherwise cause of the smoke, which I believe smells much better.

Have you been in a non smoking bar so far. go to the toilet once to pee, if you are in luck someone just left the pooper.....or in the club where everyone has been dancing the night away.......yes people smell horrible in an overfull club.

I dont know if you ever cleaned out a tap, as in the equipent lines, smells truly disgusting.

But I guess for the non smokers they would prefer to smell that than the great aroma sigarets leave behind compared to that....

like this discussion tho
Sorry but I have worked in Bars. And the smell of a bar with it's organic components is pretty bad but I can tell you from personal experience that the additional component of Smoke makes these smells foul way beyond when they would be just by themselves. Unless you are letting people pi55 themselves in public.

Just for an additional note. I find that the one thing that I enjoyed the most about smoking bans is that I could go to the bathroom without wanting to puke. Nothing like the smell of urine, feces and smoke all mixed up into one revolting aroma. Of course those that think that smoke adds to this stench in a positive way probably don't think their shite stinks either.
Brian.
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  #249  
Old 30.12.2009, 01:35
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Thanks for this post! I was shocked to read it, so they basically have the right to smoke bu tyou dont have the right to breath clean air ??
I have asthma and believe me, smoke does make it worse, sometimes it will even make a crisis come when I am otherwise feeling great !
I was so happy when Chicago adopted a smoking ban. I am asthmatic who has smoker friends, and each of them adapted. It was nice to go to the bar and not come home smelling like an ashtray, or worse yet, gasping for breath. No matter how 'considerate' my smoker friends thought they were being, they weren't. It was really strange to go back to London three Christmases ago and have people smoking... and both my husband and I abhorred it.

I'm so looking forward to the Zurich ban! Trust me, the bars will not shut... in fact, I swear there are more people out in Chicago than ever before. Heck, people bring kids to bars here.

In the meantime, I guess I'm going to have to deal with smoky bars from mid-Jan to May. I'm certain that most people will not mind nipping outside for a smoke; they certainly don't in Chicago, and it's like -20C here right now.
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Old 30.12.2009, 21:47
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Well technically they don't actually smoke *in* the grocery stores.
They just smoke right next to the entrances of grocery stores in the malls. Since there are no closed doors separating the two spaces you can be standing in the fruit and veg section and actually see the smoke in the air. I have bought food and gotten it home and smelled the smoke on it like it had been in a pub.

In the malls it used to be that you could have trouble seeing to the far side of a large mall for the smoke. This problem was especially bad during inclement weather.

This is no longer a problem in many cantons, like Vaud, but it is not country wide, yet.

Brian.
And thats a problem with a lot of "no smoking" places in Switzerland...You have to walk thru a ton of smoke to get into the "non smoking place"...or if its summertime and you go to a non smoking cafe...but all the outside seats are taken by smokers!..You have to walk thru a cloud..I think the non-smoking should also be banned within so many meters of the non-smoking place...IMHO
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Old 04.01.2010, 09:51
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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And thats a problem with a lot of "no smoking" places in Switzerland...You have to walk thru a ton of smoke to get into the "non smoking place"...or if its summertime and you go to a non smoking cafe...but all the outside seats are taken by smokers!..You have to walk thru a cloud..I think the non-smoking should also be banned within so many meters of the non-smoking place...IMHO
That is what happens in a lot of places with bans. We have this problem both here and in France. I have noticed that most "non-smoking" areas are full and the smoking areas are usually sparsely populated. It has taken time but now that people are starting to understand what is at stake both the consumers and business owners are starting to expect that people will not want to be contaminated by tobacco smoke.

Eventually, many people realise or perceive that there is still the problem of smokers not respecting non smokers need and wish for clean air and the law is expanded to include areas up to 25 meters/yards from any air inlet or entrance or exit of any public premises. For example this is the case in Minnesota where the winter temperature can drop below -20c in the day.

This law can be a bit harsh but is necessitated by smokers thinking that they are following the letter or spirit of the law by standing in the doorway holding the door open whilst smoking so that they don't get too cold. People wouldn't think of allowing a vehicle to idle next to the air intake of a building but smoking around the doors and windows is still considered acceptable.

This is also becoming standard practise at hospitals. Most hospitals in the United States won't allow smoking on their campuses. This makes perfect sense as you will not find a larger concentration of compromised immune systems and people with other health problems anywhere else in the community. Even the phenomenon of smokers wisking in immediately after a smoke and bringing in all of the toxins and smells with them on their clothes and hair can be potentially hazardous to the patients in hospitals.

Some corporations that have a large enough population of "addicts" may decide to be nice and build smoking shelters for their employees that smoke. My wife's company does this on their large campus. I find this convenient for two reasons. One is that I can avoid the shelter and avoid the smoke and two is that the smokers can smoke somewhere out of the weather and have somewhere reasonable to "enjoy their habit."

Brian.
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Old 07.01.2010, 13:44
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

Looks like the details for Zurich have been decided at last...

http://www.awa.zh.ch/internet/vd/awa...uchverbot.html

If I read it right, smoking areas can be up to a third of the total area of an establishment and can be serviced.
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  #253  
Old 07.01.2010, 14:13
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Looks like the details for Zurich have been decided at last...

http://www.awa.zh.ch/internet/vd/awa...uchverbot.html

If I read it right, smoking areas can be up to a third of the total area of an establishment and can be serviced.
Yes, but only if strict ventilation requirements are meant and the Staff consents to serve in the affected area.

Look for smoke drift and people going by you that reek of smoke. Maybe I am wrong but I have a bad feeling that this will effectively kill the efficacy of a "non" smoking area. If the ventilation is good and staff are not required/allowed to service both areas due to contamination then maybe it will still work.

Time will tell.
Brian.
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Old 07.01.2010, 14:36
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Yes, but only if strict ventilation requirements are meant and the Staff consents to serve in the affected area.

Look for smoke drift and people going by you that reek of smoke. Maybe I am wrong but I have a bad feeling that this will effectively kill the efficacy of a "non" smoking area. If the ventilation is good and staff are not required/allowed to service both areas due to contamination then maybe it will still work.

Time will tell.
Brian.

First, that heavy smokers "smell" of smoke is obvious, and you can experience this if travelling by public transport. But the smoking ban aboard railways is working, and it is such a difference to the times when more than half of the trains were smoker area, catering for less than 35% of the travellers, which means that the non-smoking carriages were full and the non-smoking ones half-empty.

Second, as much as I support the ban, I oppose radical "anti-smoking fundamentalism". So that I regard the Zürich solution, which will also be the one of Geneva and Basel (etc), as a good one. While the "union-idea" with smoker-places of below 80m3 is clear crap !
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Old 09.01.2010, 12:13
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

Smoking ban linked to drop in heart attacks (SwissInfo)

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A ban on smoking in restaurants and bars in eastern Switzerland could have led to fewer heart attacks since its introduction, according to a recent medical study.

These first Swiss results come after similar findings in other countries, and constitute yet another indication that cigarettes play an important role in cardiac disease.
...
And for the smoker(s) who'll inevitably disagree, to avoid rebuttals and replies: you're a tw4t...
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  #256  
Old 13.01.2010, 00:45
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

I'm not a smoker, but these laws and those who applaud them are always a disappointment to me. It is a simple matter of property rights - proprietors and their landlords should be able to decide such matters. Don't give me any baloney about the supposed danger of secondhand smoke - people are simply not that fragile, and those who are bothered by smoke are free to take their business to non-smoking or better ventillated venues.

One of the things I like best about Switzlerland is how it has preserved little liberties like swimming at your own risk, or lighting fireworks and drinking champagne at the quay on New Years. And though I don't partake, I have always liked how cigars are available should I want one in a bar. <Sigh>
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  #257  
Old 13.01.2010, 01:46
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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I'm not a smoker, but these laws and those who applaud them are always a disappointment to me. It is a simple matter of property rights - proprietors and their landlords should be able to decide such matters. Don't give me any baloney about the supposed danger of secondhand smoke - people are simply not that fragile, and those who are bothered by smoke are free to take their business to non-smoking or better ventillated venues.

One of the things I like best about Switzlerland is how it has preserved little liberties like swimming at your own risk, or lighting fireworks and drinking champagne at the quay on New Years. And though I don't partake, I have always liked how cigars are available should I want one in a bar. <Sigh>
* A majority of the proprietors are heavy smokers, and so are their cronies
* There are no "non-smoking venues"
* Smokers in future can take their business to fumoirs
* you still can buy your cigars in a bar and then get to the fumoir
* cigars/cigarettes are far cheaper at Denner and Co-op
* you also in future can buy the stuff at petrol stations
-- you however are strongly recommended NOT to smoke beside the taps
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Old 13.01.2010, 09:20
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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I'm not a smoker, but these laws and those who applaud them are always a disappointment to me. It is a simple matter of property rights - proprietors and their landlords should be able to decide such matters. Don't give me any baloney about the supposed danger of secondhand smoke - people are simply not that fragile, and those who are bothered by smoke are free to take their business to non-smoking or better ventillated venues.

One of the things I like best about Switzlerland is how it has preserved little liberties like swimming at your own risk, or lighting fireworks and drinking champagne at the quay on New Years. And though I don't partake, I have always liked how cigars are available should I want one in a bar. <Sigh>
Which statement is true? Either you are or are not a smoker...

I call Bull **** on this whole line of reasoning.

[rant mode: ON]
I may or may not be that fragile but I do have asthma and really don't appreciate that I can't go anywhere in public that a "normal" person can without having problems. The "baloney" as you put it is not untrue. There is no where to go if you live in a state/canton where less than half of the people smoke but all of us get to breathe the smoke that was everywhere in the malls and offices and restaurants. People are indeed this fragile and stupid. I have met smokers who have cancer directly from smoking, they know it and admit it and yet... They still smoke a pack or more daily. Some of them are on oxygen or have a hole in their throat and still are smoking. I know that this is a small sample size but what are you looking for? Their is nothing rational about smoking.

Your property rights argument is complete rubbish. You are not allowed to do lots of things in restaurants and other public spaces due to health regulations. It has just finally come down to the majority of people deciding that they are tired of breathing others' smoke more than 80% of the time. If cocaine was legal do you think that it would be OK to just lay a line or two down in a public space where children would be present and snort? What about cross contamination? Children touch everything and put their fingers in their mouths. That would be OK with you? This is what you are arguing, whether you realise it or not.

I agree with you that CH is good for preserving little liberties. And I am glad that they have finally decided that drug addicts like smokers, desire to engage in their addiction does not trump my need to breathe clean air in public spaces. When you drink on the quay or swim you are endangering yourself only and if you damage anyone it won't be me. If you want to smoke and risk getting cancer more power to you.

But those of us who are offended by smoke really don't care about you and your type anymore. We have spent decades trying to be reasonable and negotiate socially with the addicts. We are sick of it and have finally realised that we have failed. Trying to negotiate social behaviour with addicts is foolish and that is the reason that the laws have come into force. That and the fact that the Actuarials have determined that smoking is statistically a serious health problem and the insurance companies are starting to push gently back.

If you like facts, here is one that I read a while back. The cost of smokers unhealthiness and the loss of productivity that they cause in the population as a whole is more or less evenly offset by the fact that the cancer removes a large set of the population of older smokers from the health care system in later life. So to rephrase... Smokers are costing the society Billions of dollars/pounds/euros/francs per annum but the money saved due to these same smokers dying earlier than their non smoking peers ends up being a wash. So the only consideration is then that of those who don't smoke.

Your arguments about how people aren't really inconvenienced by others smoking are completely flawed and smack of one who is harboring an addiction or is a pusher themselves. I can't imagine how much money is made selling this drug to the users. I am sure that it is a very large amount. I know Crack Users who are more polite about their drug use than most cigarette smokers I have seen. Speaking of Crack Users, it has been shown that smoking is actually worse for you than cocaine use. The numbers don't lie. But, of course, smokers "know they are enjoying something that is legal" and therefor don't worry about the affect on others.

Finally, why do you think that smoking has been banned in equipment and computer rooms for over a decade or more in all parts of the world? It isn't because smoking is clean and not particularly destructive. Quite the opposite. And don't forget, machines don't get cancer, don't get sick feeling or headaches. Not that you seem to care about those of us who have to live in smoke filled miasma that the smokers would subject us to. If smokers can offend us so cavalierly then they don't deserve the protections of the law but we "non smokers" do. That is the "your right to swing your fist, ends where my nose begins" argument.

BTW, this is me being nice. I am over 40 and have had asthma all of my life and know from personal experience that smoking is not a good thing for most people. Just because most people can tolerate it doesn't mean that I should have to. I think that those of us who hate smoking should come up with a chemical that acts like antabuse in alcoholics. Well, maybe that might be mean. But, at least them smokers would get to know what it feels like to be around them when they can't control themselves.
[rant mode: OFF]

You have to understand that every time someone lights up around me it is like being slapped in the face or being spit on. The health implications would be less if it were. Your lack of concern for my well being and happiness is staggering but I still respect you even less than the smokers. At least the smokers have an addiction and by extension they have an excuse to attempt to justify their behaviour. You have no such remit. Your behaviour is socially unacceptable. No matter how much you try to justify it, it will continue to be so.

Good luck with your willful ignorance.
Brian.
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Old 13.01.2010, 10:40
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

I don't consider myself some terribly fragile princess, but I cannot wait for the ban! I would love to go out in Switzerland, but so far this has been pretty much impossible. I hate coughing my lungs out, having red eyes and stinking like a skunk because of all the smoke. I actually get a hangover without drinking anything if I have spent an evening in a smoky place.

Go somewhere else, you say? Well, as mentioned, there are not that many smoke-free places, are there? Secondly, even though they are otherwise nice people, some of my friends, colleagues and acquaintances still smoke. And I don't know now if smokers are more self-centered or if non-smokers are simply pushovers, but be honest now, if you have both non-smokers and smokers present, do you go to a smoking or smokefree bar? Do you at least sit in the non-smoking section out of respect to non-smoking friends and do smokers go outside every time they need to smoke? Well, I'm sure we get a lot of smokers claiming now that this is exactly what they do, but I have not had the luck to meet such people in real life. And if this is indeed what they do anyway, what's the problem then with the new laws?
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Old 13.01.2010, 11:37
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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I don't consider myself some terribly fragile princess, but I cannot wait for the ban! I would love to go out in Switzerland, but so far this has been pretty much impossible. I hate coughing my lungs out, having red eyes and stinking like a skunk because of all the smoke. I actually get a hangover without drinking anything if I have spent an evening in a smoky place.

Go somewhere else, you say? Well, as mentioned, there are not that many smoke-free places, are there? Secondly, even though they are otherwise nice people, some of my friends, colleagues and acquaintances still smoke. And I don't know now if smokers are more self-centered or if non-smokers are simply pushovers, but be honest now, if you have both non-smokers and smokers present, do you go to a smoking or smokefree bar? Do you at least sit in the non-smoking section out of respect to non-smoking friends and do smokers go outside every time they need to smoke? Well, I'm sure we get a lot of smokers claiming now that this is exactly what they do, but I have not had the luck to meet such people in real life. And if this is indeed what they do anyway, what's the problem then with the new laws?
I find skunk smell less overall offensive than smoke.

I, too, find that I get hangovers from passive smoking. When I used to work as a sound engineer I wouldn't drink as it would affect my hearing response. So after a night of nothing but soft drinks, I would wake up the next morning with a screaming headache. I can drink till I can barely walk and not have hangovers. Good thing that I don't do that very much.

Simple, smokers are addicts. Non-smokers are "not" addicts.
Addicts behave in extremely self centered ways. Remember certain addicts will sell their bodies or their children(s) for a fix. Fortunately for smokers cigarettes are easier to get hold of and physiologically less dangerous. Notice, I did not say less addictive.

Brian.
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