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Old 23.02.2010, 12:47
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

Seeing is believing as in 'here, see the rules'.

I agree, the rules aren't perfect, but a damn sight better than today.

Last night I walked into La Fonda in Basel for a meal after a long slog at the Fastnacht. They have a large non-smoking section upstairs normally.
I asked for a table for 2, non-smoking.
"Sorry sir, for Fastnacht, all is smoking!"
B4sta4rds!
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  #282  
Old 23.02.2010, 12:58
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Last night I walked into La Fonda in Basel for a meal after a long slog at the Fastnacht. They have a large non-smoking section upstairs normally.
I asked for a table for 2, non-smoking.
"Sorry sir, for Fastnacht, all is smoking!"
B4sta4rds!
Yeah and the noise goes on until WELL after 10pm too. I'm telling you. And the restaurants and everything stay open late. Don't those employees want to go home and be with their families?

And don't even get me started on the way they don't recycle all those little bits of paper but just leave them out on the street. The #!$&(%@s.
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  #283  
Old 23.02.2010, 13:31
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

And it disrupts the trams!
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  #284  
Old 23.02.2010, 13:53
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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No there isn't
Smoking is one of the most dangerous things someone can possibly do to themselves and to suggest otherwise openly like this is incredibly negligent.
Smoking is one of the most dangerous things you can do to yourself, but probably not to others.

You have to be very careful interpreting numbers, a 30% risk increase sounds like a lot (WHO numbers, http://www.who.int/topics/tobacco/en/), but in reality if 1 in 1000 non-smokers die of natural cause lung cancer, 1.3 in 1000 die when subjected to second hand smoke. I doubt you'll find a statistician who will review their data and conclude that it is statistically significant, especially when social-economic generalisations of smokers is fully taken into account.

Being around smokers or smoke is obviously personal preference; but I can't help feeling that demonising something is a self fulfilling prophecy
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Old 23.02.2010, 14:15
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

Putting lung cancer and women with premature wrinkles aside, I find most places in Zurich just impossible to breathe in due to the smoke. A couple of times, I've had to escape outside for a breath of air. Ditto for even my smoker friends.

So whereas there could have been a middle ground, due to the extreme attitude that seems prevalent in these parts "It's my god-given right to smoke and blow it in your face and not even try to make public and private areas comfortable for non-smokers", we will go from all to nothing.

But don't worry. In the rest of Europe and N America, where smoking has long been banned, civilisation hasn't collapsed. Bars and restaurants are still open; smokers step out for a puff, everyone is happy inside and out; smoking rates have decreased, leading to healthier people, and no need to do laundry after going out for a night on the town. It will be the same here.

ZH will conform on this one.

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Smoking is one of the most dangerous things you can do to yourself, but probably not to others.

You have to be very careful interpreting numbers, a 30% risk increase sounds like a lot (WHO numbers, http://www.who.int/topics/tobacco/en/), but in reality if 1 in 1000 non-smokers die of natural cause lung cancer, 1.3 in 1000 die when subjected to second hand smoke. I doubt you'll find a statistician who will review their data and conclude that it is statistically significant, especially when social-economic generalisations of smokers is fully taken into account.

Being around smokers or smoke is obviously personal preference; but I can't help feeling that demonising something is a self fulfilling prophecy
You've confused the term statistically significant with whether it is signficant to you personally.

Also, best not to pre-judge what a trained statistician would say; please just give their results and their conclusions.

Last edited by vwild1; 31.03.2010 at 19:03. Reason: merged 2 successive posts into 1
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  #286  
Old 23.02.2010, 15:02
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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You have to be very careful interpreting numbers, a 30% risk increase sounds like a lot (WHO numbers, http://www.who.int/topics/tobacco/en/), but in reality if 1 in 1000 non-smokers die of natural cause lung cancer, 1.3 in 1000 die when subjected to second hand smoke. I doubt you'll find a statistician who will review their data and conclude that it is statistically significant, especially when social-economic generalisations of smokers is fully taken into account.
It's not simply to do with the increased risk of lung cancer.

Patient.co.uk claims that 17,000 children under the age of 5, in the UK are admitted to hospital each year due to illnesses caused by their parents smoking.

http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Smoking-The-Facts.htm

I'm not sure you have the right idea about statistical significance.

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Given a sufficiently large sample, extremely small and non-notable differences can be found to be statistically significant, and statistical significance says nothing about the practical significance of a difference
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Old 23.02.2010, 19:46
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Yeah and the noise goes on until WELL after 10pm too. I'm telling you. And the restaurants and everything stay open late. Don't those employees want to go home and be with their families?

And don't even get me started on the way they don't recycle all those little bits of paper but just leave them out on the street. The #!$&(%@s.
Why do they have a holiday that makes it more like the USA?

The cleanliness of the streets is one of the things that I note every time I leave this country and again every time I return.

BTW, what is Fastnacht?
THanks,
Brian.
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  #288  
Old 23.02.2010, 19:48
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Why do they have a holiday that makes it more like the USA?
What holiday's that, Knabenschiessen?
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Old 23.02.2010, 19:54
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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What holiday's that, Knabenschiessen?
Thank goodness we don't actually have a holiday like that.
It would be very popular with a scary segment of the population.


Thanks,
Brian.

BTW, never mind about Fasnacht. I looked it up.
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  #290  
Old 24.02.2010, 14:57
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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So you are inconsiderate then ?
Moving a cigarette another foot away from a non-smoker is hardly being considerate. And what does blowing the smoke in the air achieve? You think other people then can't smell it? It doesn't get in thier clothes, hair, eyes, noses? You don't have to have smoke blown in your face to be effected by it, and this is what smokers just don't get, or just ignore.

Anyway, all pretty academic now, as smokers days are now well and truly numbered!
What do you think sarcasm achieves?
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  #291  
Old 24.02.2010, 17:11
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

Reminds me of the 1986 Yes Prime Minister episode "The Smokescreen".

Sir Humphrey has just pointed out taxes from tobacco raise £4 billion a year.

Jim Hacker: "Humphrey, we are talking about 100,000 deaths a year."
Sir Humphrey: "Yes, but cigarette taxes pay for a third of the cost of the National Health Service. We are saving many more lives than we otherwise could because of those smokers who voluntary lay down their lives for their friends. Smokers are national benefactors."

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  #292  
Old 24.02.2010, 18:40
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

I think its incredible that we even consider that smokers are being prohibited of smoking.

They CAN smoke! they just have to do it outside!

In Sweden they even give you a blanket for your comfort.

I used to have asthma due to smoke. In Spain they agreed to let the owners of pubs and restos choose if they wanted to be smoking or not.
If i wanted to go out with a bunch of friends, they all wanted to do smoking pub. If i suggested to go to a non smoking one i was the "boring" one.

I almost never go out because of this. Smoke bothers me. I put my money in non smoking places. I used to go out LOADS when i lived in Sweden.

If smokers go out to smoke, they get to smoke and me as a customer in the restaurant/bar can keep my activity free of smoke.

The smoker smokes, and i breathe without difficulty inside the bar. Everyone happy.

I don't see the problem.
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  #293  
Old 24.02.2010, 18:46
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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I think its incredible that we even consider that smokers are being prohibited of smoking.

They CAN smoke! they just have to do it outside!

In Sweden they even give you a blanket for your comfort.

I used to have asthma due to smoke. In Spain they agreed to let the owners of pubs and restos choose if they wanted to be smoking or not.
If i wanted to go out with a bunch of friends, they all wanted to do smoking pub. If i suggested to go to a non smoking one i was the "boring" one.

I almost never go out because of this. Smoke bothers me. I put my money in non smoking places. I used to go out LOADS when i lived in Sweden.

If smokers go out to smoke, they get to smoke and me as a customer in the restaurant/bar can keep my activity free of smoke.

The smoker smokes, and i breathe without difficulty inside the bar. Everyone happy.

I don't see the problem.
Owners should be given the choice, it's their property and their right. The reason the no smoking brigade hate this is that they know that most bar owners wouldn't ban cigarettes!
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  #294  
Old 24.02.2010, 19:26
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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What do you think sarcasm achieves?
That isn't sarcasm.
Sarcasm is
"Oh, look at you! You really are considerate blowing smoke in my hair, and hiding your cigarette behind you! You know, that makes all the difference. It's a pleasure to be out with someone soooo caring"
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  #295  
Old 24.02.2010, 19:31
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Owners should be given the choice, it's their property and their right. The reason the no smoking brigade hate this is that they know that most bar owners wouldn't ban cigarettes!
Hey, it's that broken record again. This has been covered and it's tiring that it continues to be brought up. There are different levels of property. If you want to have people smoke at your apartment, no prob. If you're going to own an establishment and run a business, rules change. Of course bar owners would rather cater to a vocal minority than a majority who for years didn't stand up for themselves. Well, now they have, in the form of a vote. Democracy, ain't it a B.
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Old 24.02.2010, 19:44
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Hey, it's that broken record again. This has been covered and it's tiring that it continues to be brought up. There are different levels of property. If you want to have people smoke at your apartment, no prob. If you're going to own an establishment and run a business, rules change. Of course bar owners would rather cater to a vocal minority than a majority who for years didn't stand up for themselves. Well, now they have, in the form of a vote. Democracy, ain't it a B.

the record ain't brokem mate! Democracy does rule but that doesn't mean it's fair on the poor sod who's pub shuts because of dogooders who never go out!
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Old 24.02.2010, 20:14
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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the record ain't brokem mate! Democracy does rule but that doesn't mean it's fair on the poor sod who's pub shuts because of dogooders who never go out!
You do have a point, but there's many people who don't go out just because of the smoking. Just look at the bias on this thread.

I'm sure the transition where the smokers stay at home, and the non-smokers who aren't yet in the habit of going out aren't going out, will claim plenty business victims, but this isn't about keeping small businesses going.
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Old 24.02.2010, 20:31
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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the record ain't brokem mate! Democracy does rule but that doesn't mean it's fair on the poor sod who's pub shuts because of dogooders who never go out!
Surely if someone's pub shuts it will be because of the smokers who don't go out after the ban, not the lack of non-smokers who never went out before it. Are smokers really do-gooders?
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  #299  
Old 24.02.2010, 20:33
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

Well I rather be a smoker than a d*ck
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Old 24.02.2010, 20:43
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Re: Smoking bans to be effective 1st May 2010

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Well I rather be a smoker than a d*ck
There I was, thinking you could be neither.
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