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  #181  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:34
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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Oi, Swampy,

I don't drive a car, and never have.

So, back to shoes v bikes...
My current bike has lasted 16 years and will go forever. I've gone through at least 20 pairs of shoes in that time.

I guess we'd have to do assessment of materials and impact on environment, but in terms of shipping the bike wins out.

It def wins out for energy efficiency. Less food impact there.
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  #182  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:36
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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I don't really care about cyclists jumping red lights and the like as I don't feel threatened by them as the same way as I would by a car. A car driver stands a good chance of injuring me or killing me, a bike driver less so.
Indeed, but as I observed before, car drivers are not, generally, in the habit of treating pavements as an extra lane or ploughing through pedestrians on pedestrian crossings.

Cyclists, on the other hand, are.

I feel much more threatened by bicycles as I walk through Zurich. The cars know their place, and I know where that place is. I can't say the same for the cyclists.
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  #183  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:40
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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A car driver could use that argument about cyclists. You might only be riding a small bit of metal compared to a car, but a pedestrian is only flesh and blood.
No, cyclists are well behaved on LimmatQuai. And cars are not allowed most of the way. It's the pedestrians that cause havoc for cyclists on a tram/cycle path.

They shouldn't just jump into the road area expecting everyone else to adapt if they are flesh and blood.

The argument is not the same, cuz in a pedestrian-cycle collision both parties are going to be injured equally. No one has a chance against a car.
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  #184  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:43
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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Indeed, but as I observed before, car drivers are not, generally, in the habit of treating pavements as an extra lane or ploughing through pedestrians on pedestrian crossings.

Cyclists, on the other hand, are.

I feel much more threatened by bicycles as I walk through Zurich. The cars know their place, and I know where that place is. I can't say the same for the cyclists.
Care to uncover some stats about the causes of traffic injuries in Zürich?
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  #185  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:43
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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Indeed, but as I observed before, car drivers are not, generally, in the habit of treating pavements as an extra lane or ploughing through pedestrians on pedestrian crossings.

Cyclists, on the other hand, are.

I feel much more threatened by bicycles as I walk through Zurich. The cars know their place, and I know where that place is. I can't say the same for the cyclists.
As stated previously, cars don't know their place. They are in the bike paths, plowing through cyclists. One has to be vigilant at all times.

And as stated above, pedestrians don't know their place at specific locations around town.

It works all ways.

P.S. You should really see someone about your phobia of humans on pedals. I know dogs have it too, so maybe something in it to figure out.
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  #186  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:44
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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They shouldn't just jump into the road area expecting everyone else to adapt if they are flesh and blood.
I agree. My quarrel is not with cyclists on the road. My quarrel is with those who think they have right of way on pedestrian crossings and sidewalks.

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The argument is not the same, cuz in a pedestrian-cycle collision both parties are going to be injured equally.
I disagree. A bike might be significantly lighter than a car, but if it comes silently hurtling at a pedestrian (especially a child or an older person), it can cause quite a lot of damage. There have even been cases (rare, admittedly) of people being killed by cyclists.

Let's not pretend that a piece of metal isn't a piece of metal.
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  #187  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:46
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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Care to uncover some stats about the causes of traffic injuries in Zürich?
Who cares about statistics? I'm talking about my own experience of 40 years as a pedestrian.
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  #188  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:46
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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I disagree. A bike might be significantly lighter than a car, but if it comes silently hurtling at a pedestrian (especially a child or an older person), it can cause quite a lot of damage. There have even been cases (rare, admittedly) of people being killed by cyclists.

Let's not pretend that a piece of metal isn't a piece of metal.
Yeah, but the cyclist is gonna be thrown and/or hit by same piece of metal, so my point is that a cyclist can have no confidence in just hitting a pedestrian. Which is why my heart is pumping down Limmat-Quai for my own life as well.

In fact, when pedestrians are at fault vs a cyclist, the latter is gonna try and avoid and take the greater damage.
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  #189  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:46
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

I suspect this is the relevant document, but my German isn't quite up to it . . . I'll give it a go later though.

http://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/content/...20gekracht.pdf

Ah wait . . . there is an English introduction:

Quote:
Accident figures always reflect the mobility culture
of a town. If, for example, the number of cyclists
increases, their involvement in road accidents will
increase correspondingly. Today’s accident figures
for the City of Zurich are dominated by the motor
car. Motorbikes, bicycles and pedestrians, goods and
public transport vehicles, are involved in only a fraction
of the accidents. In the past, in particular during
the war, conditions were significantly different;
roads and hence accident statistics were dominated
by non-motorised traffic. Accidents typically resulting
from the various ways and means of getting
from one place to another have created specific local
patterns. Whilst pedestrian accidents tend to be concentrated
in the inner city, car accidents are spread

over the entire metropolitan area.
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  #190  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:47
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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Who cares about statistics? I'm talking about my own experience of 40 years as a pedestrian.
You're definitely pedestrian.
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  #191  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:47
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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I agree. My quarrel is not with cyclists on the road. My quarrel is with those who think they have right of way on pedestrian crossings and sidewalks.




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  #192  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:49
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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I think some people forget that when a car hits us, we're dead. And people forget that even in a bike-crazy city like Zurich, most drivers do not consider that there are cyclists on the road. It is rare that drivers around here check the cycle lane before turning. It is more than often that they veer into bike lanes without a intersection in sight. So what does a cyclist do: we become more agressive to avert these sort of incidents. I am not excusing cycling through crosswalks or aimlessly riding on sidewalks. Annoys me as much as anyone else (I am a pedestrian too).

So we may ride in the middle of a lane for example. Or we may jump onto sidewalks near intersections.

And at places like Limmat-Quai, pedestrians are guilty, so again we become more aggressive. On this stretch if road, I will go through crosswalks as it's the safest for all.

I will also add that when I am taking my road bike out of town, I am locked into pedals and can't stop on a whim. Most people recognise this and give me right of way, but there are those who don't.

So, all 3 parties are guilty and that's the reason incidents happen. Pedestrians think they have ultimate right of way and walk willy nilly or are completely unaware of cyclists. Cyclists are either avoiding risk or have way too much attitude. And cars not sharing the road properly. Can end up a mess in exactly the places seeingbee mentioned: Central, Limmat-Quai, HB.
It must be a sheer nightmare to ride in a city like Zurich. The people on average are more pushy there than in smaller towns.

A bit OT. There is Bruggstrasse in Baden with section where bike route merges with street in the middle. First time few years ago I was even scared to raise my hand up to indicate that I'm gonna turn left into the middle with cars in traffic flow. After a while I got used to it as it is the only way to stay on the road without being forced to turn right.
I was nicely surprised that most of the cars are aware of such and they always slow down to yield the road to let me turn.

Let's be realistic. The motor vehicles do not tolerate bicycles as these tend to slow down the traffic and also make them uncomfortable because they have to watch for another vulnerable in impact tiny little two-wheeler and it is pain in the arse for them. The pedestrians hate something moving relatively fast which can cause awe on the sidewalk and out of nowhere appear on the pavement heralded by mere sound of the bell.

Let's face it there are much too many of us in little Switzerland and the problem can only escalate in the years to come unless they creat real incentives for using a public transport but judging by prices hike by SBB next year it is unrealistic.
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  #193  
Old 13.10.2010, 15:51
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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Who cares about statistics? I'm talking about my own experience of 40 years as a pedestrian.
Do you support homeopathy on the same basis? Or anything else?

One's own experience can be informative, but one has to give way to a more objective study with broader scope.
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  #194  
Old 13.10.2010, 16:01
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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I suspect this is the relevant document, but my German isn't quite up to it . . . I'll give it a go later though.

http://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/content/...20gekracht.pdf

Ah wait . . . there is an English introduction:
Statistics as good as assumption that there were less cars during the WWII than nowadays and these were much slower, also less expats and need for speed. These days you get bankers, insurares and god only knows who else... driving their latest models and riding into asses of another car. Different times call for different measures (means of transport)! (without offence to public servants who pump up the economic growth).
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  #195  
Old 13.10.2010, 16:02
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

Seeingbee's got a point. It's all very well saying cyclists should blend with motor traffic, but have you ever tried? Cars assume that cyclists will use the pavements, or trundle quietly along next to the curb (whether there is a bike lane there or not.) They are not prepared for a cyclist riding in the left lane because he wants to make a left turn soon.. or taking up a whole lane at a stop light... let alone changing lanes in front of them.

You really are taking your life into your hands if you insist on 'acting like a car' at all times. It may be the proper legal thing to do but it is not what car drivers expect and so it causes its own share of accidents and near misses. (I suppose the proper, safe AND legal alternative would be for cyclists to get off at every intersection, walk their bikes across as pedestrians, and get back on... but that seems a bit much to ask!)

So while I agree cyclists hadn't really ought to be on the crosswalks at all, I can't muster a whole lot of outrage about it - as long as they are careful and don't run over people, of course. Seems like it is the least worst option sometimes, to be honest.
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  #196  
Old 13.10.2010, 16:10
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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Seeingbee's got a point. It's all very well saying cyclists should blend with motor traffic, but have you ever tried? Cars assume that cyclists will use the pavements, or trundle quietly along next to the curb (whether there is a bike lane there or not.) They are not prepared for a cyclist riding in the left lane because he wants to make a left turn soon.. or taking up a whole lane at a stop light... let alone changing lanes in front of them.

You really are taking your life into your hands if you insist on 'acting like a car' at all times. It may be the proper legal thing to do but it is not what car drivers expect.
Very true. On the other hand Switzerland is constructed very intelligently most of the time. Often I get astonished that the problems are solved for the bikes so well with underground passages in most of the places so one can avoid direct encounter with the traffic or left turns. But then again there might be a lost pedestrian somewhere in the tunnel using one-way bike traffic passage. Last time I saw there was a guy with two dogs on leash walking counter traffic

Last edited by jacek; 13.10.2010 at 16:20.
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  #197  
Old 13.10.2010, 16:26
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

Not sure how to interpret this, but I'll post it anyway.

cyclists-who-don-t-follow-laws-road-zrh_risiko.jpg
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  #198  
Old 13.10.2010, 16:31
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

I interpret it as risk factor object in column vs object in row. So it seems like tram against tram is the highest risk...
It also shows that the pedestrian Fussgänger is always more injured than the biker Fahrrad and no incidents pedestrian-to-pedestrian. Did they also take into account brawls in local pubs? And also 0.7% of damage caused by pedestrian on cars it must have been Hulk going to COOP on Sunday morning after finding out these were closed.
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Old 13.10.2010, 16:34
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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Not sure how to interpret this, but I'll post it anyway.

Attachment 19690
That is a graph fail if I ever saw one. What, if I may ask, are the units of 'risiko'? Incidence per year? Some sort of 'hurt' unit? And which is serious injury and which minor? Do the two numbers refer each to either the row or column verkehrsmittel?

Humph. That's as bad as DB saying 'who cares about statistics.'

EDIT: jacek interpreted it first, but I'm not really mollified.
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  #200  
Old 13.10.2010, 16:47
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Re: Cyclists who don't follow the laws of the road.

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I interpret it as risk factor object in column vs object in row. So it seems like tram against tram is the highest risk...
It also shows that the pedestrian Fussgänger is always more injured than the biker Fahrrad and no incidents pedestrian-to-pedestrian. Did they also take into account brawls in local pubs? And also 0.7% of damage caused by pedestrian on cars it must have been Hulk going to COOP on Sunday morning after finding out these were closed.
I'm guessing that the local brawls are not part of "road accidents", and they must have excluded any injuries as a result of road rage and "fighting post accident"...
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