...and neither Luzern, nor Berne or Geneva are models of social-liberalism here...

my 2 cents

by size, sure, but L.A. is NOT a city but a union of settlements, while Zurich IS a small city. The question I have however rather is : IS Greater Los Angeles really liberal ?

your 2 cents are lost. As Geneva is as liberal as SFO. And a mile to the left of SFO or New Orleans.

By and large, on four extensive trips to the USA, I was heavily shocked to realize how conservative that allegedly "young" country in reality really is

by average close to the Canton of Congo and the Bayerischer Wald

These are good points. The US have a far wider range of diversity than Switzerland, simply due to its multiculturalism and the lack of any predominant culture. Whereas Switzerland has a predominantly Swiss culture.

But in regards to tolerance and basic principles of liberty, I think the US is more staunch and forceful in enforcing norms than Switzerland. People can get beaten, hung and shot in the US for being the wrong type of person at the wrong place, whereas I haven't heard that occuring much in Switzerland.

it depends on where you're at. If you live around the northern parts of it, like Hollywood or Ventura, yes, it's a pretty liberal place. Radical ideas and rejection of all traditional values is the norm. Same thing in the western side, near Santa Monica (LA's coastal sub-city). Walking around these areas, you'll find all manner of strange people doing strange things from a variety of subcultures: goths, furries, punks, etc. If you inhabit south central LA, you'll find yourself in one of the worst ghettos in the country. Poverty and gang violence are part of everyday life. If you go further south, and to the east, you enter the Orange County and Pomona areas, which are still part of the LA urban sprawl. These areas are very conservative, with the majority of the populace indistinguishable from somewhere in the midwest. Very conservative, very christian.

The thing I always notice the most about this region isn't the culture, but how dirty and run down everything is. Los Angeles is a very ugly place.


the sentiment I gather from reading through many threads in this forum is that the Swiss are a very haughty, touchy people, quick to grumble about anything they find mildly disagreeable. They also seem to hate noise in any form.

And they stare. Don't forget the staring.



(seriously... I'd take the entire Complaints Corner with more than a grain of salt: being a foreigner anywhere is tough, and people need to let off steam. The Swiss are lovely, if a bit hard work sometimes.)

can you give me some examples on how the Swiss are lovely? I'm not trying to be combative, I merely know next to nothing about these people.

When I moved to t'country there was a lot of snow on my new drive. My Swiss neighbours came out and shoveled it clear so we could unload easier.

Well, our downstairs neighbor is lovely, our upstairs neighbor is lovely, my Swiss officemate is lovely, my Swiss thesis advisor and his whole family are lovely, the old lady who stopped me to have a chat about my knitting as we were leaving the restaurant last night was lovely, the smiling old gentleman who scolded me for not having my travel pass with me (but wished me a happy birthday anyway) was lovely, the families at my church who immediately invited me (a new arrival without more than three words of German to rub together) to join their home Bible study group are lovely, the old lady who nearly whisked me off to Vienna last week was lovely in spite of it...

They're people. Lots of them are lovely, some are not so lovely, a few are mad as a bag of spanners, but you get that anywhere. You wouldn't generalize about Americans in such broad terms so why generalize about the Swiss?

It does make a difference once your (Swiss) German improves. There is a lot of casual humor in the culture which non-German speakers - or those whose German is strictly functional - tend to miss. The Swiss rarely LOL at these comments so if you didn't catch the joke you probably will not know one has been made.

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Certainly quick to grumble about noise. And draughts. But on the whole not haughty, rather the reverse. Except possibly on the gold coast (and Liechtenstein, but that's technically not Switzerland).

Generally I've found people here to be very civilised and polite. I know that this isn't everyone's experience and this is coming from a UK point of view rather than an American one. Drivers, for example, in Zürich (where I live) will often slow down and let pedestrians cross. There is a noticeable lack of aggression here, which you can sense on the streets at night. Again though, this is my impression after having lived in London.

This is also an very honest society: Many vendors will still send you things with an invoice rather than seeking pre-payment. Lost items will often be handed in and returned.

It's a credit-based rather than debt-based culture. This is reflected in the export-based economy, the aversion to deficit budgets (this has only recently dipped in to the red) and a high level of personal saving.

There's a great love of outdoors physical activity here, with weekend skiing and hiking being very popular. In the Summer, here in Zürich, everyone chills by the lake or river and goes swimming.

This isn't true in all industries, but I get a general sense here that people still take a pride in doing something properly, rather than quickly or cheaply.

So . . . sensible, safe, calm.

I've been to Kansas. There are far less rules that actually govern your daily life, such as when you can mow your lawn, make noise, etc. Not sure I can think of a place in the US that has all of these rules regulating daily life. The 'big' rules might look more liberal but your daily life will not be more liberal. Furthermore if you are sensitive to issues of social justice, and you are thinking CH will be better than CA, have a second think. Switzerland can be a great place, but if you are in any way, shape, or form considering it as a liberal escapism from CA you've boarded the wrong ship.

Actually, Celebration,_Florida is very restrictive in what you can and can't do....

Probably right. I was referring to Kansas more from the standpoint of diversity, comparative culture and geography.

I can't deny, this sounds pretty bizarre! Very cultish as well.. little disney cults making random noise and mowing their lawns on Sunday.

Oh, I was there when I went to Disneyworld. The WHOLE place smells like swampwater.

To put it quite bluntly, many Swiss are most exceedingly arrogant and chauvinist and xenophobe. Such people ARE a minority but a very outspoken, vocal and well organised one ! Noise is hated if produced by somebody else

Thanks. There has been a thing, on starting on the EF, which puzzled me. Many EFfers mentioned unfriendly unhumourous cashiers at Migros and Coop, while I was used to joke with them in outlets all around the country. I stopped to be puzzled when I realized that much humour and politeness and friendliness was done in Swiss German side remarks of course a bit outside the reach of "outsiders". But exactly the Brits are those people who enjoy to play with words and make jokes of it, and find it hilarious if "those USsers" do not understand those word jokes . I upon arrival in London in 72 needed some 3 or 4 weeks really to grasp the "English Humour" !

Although I am not a resident of Switzerland, as of yet, it is my understanding that Switzerland is extremely conservative. Did you not hear of the new laws regarding minerets? Yeah, try Finland, or perhaps, Communist China.

Just so you know: conservative/liberal can't be translated straight from an American political context to a Swiss one. Does. Not. Work.

It's not even a question of degree. The defining issues are not the same, and when they do overlap the positions are not always the same. Don't say you weren't warned!