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Old 10.06.2017, 17:10
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Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

Oh, I so hope someone can explain this to me today, please!

As part of a Swiss apprenticeship, the young person (typically aged 16 to 19, occasionally a little older, usually having completed secondary school) has to write a paper about a topic not directly on the syllabus. She must come up with her own idea, but relate this to a spread of topics specified by the apprenticeship school.

This paper is called a "Vertiefungsarbeit", which means a work that goes into some depth about a topic. It is not at university level.

Naturally, there is some planning in advance. The apprentice has to suggest a topic, may have it rejected by the teacher, suggests another and once this is approved, she must then explain to the teacher why she chose her topic, what interests her about it, and how she intends to go about doing the research. The paper must be structured according to some givens.

Please can someone explain to me the difference between a "Probe VA" (a trial or provisional VA) and the real VA itself. I need to understand whether the Probe VA is merely a concept, or if it is already a rough draft of the final VA, i.e. how advanced should the work be, and how polished it must be before she hands it in. Are there marks of the Probe VA, or only for the VA?

Kanton Zürich.
Thanks very much.
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Old 11.06.2017, 06:26
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

I have been told, but this is merely hearsay, that the Probe-VA is a kind of exam paper in itself, and that the marks count. I don't know, though, by how much, in relation to the VA itself.

As I couldn't find it out on Google, I'd really appreciate an explanation from anyne who has already been through apprenticeships of their own, or with their children or other young folk, could please explain the difference between a Probe-VA and a VA.

Thanks very much.
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Old 11.06.2017, 09:50
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

I will ask my daughter.

Hers was about Moto Guzzi.

Tom
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Old 11.06.2017, 10:09
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

I had a bit of a google,

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertiefungsarbeit

and

https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a10

Sadly, many of the apprenticeship streams are being watered down to cater to the bottom feeders. My guess is that the Probe VA is there so that a candidate who fails to submit a VA has something to indicate that they _almost_ completed the requirements of the apprenticeship.

Note: I know a couple of kids who are "bottom feeders" and are doing an apprenticeship. They're convinced that they'll be fine in the marketplace after having taken the absolutely minimalist route to a bit of paper. I keep telling them that the bit of paper doesn't guarantee a job, and at that level probably not a good one, and trying to impress on them that the more they know about what they do for the rest of their lives the better they will be at the job (and the more interesting it will be), and helping them understand complicated stuff like trigonometry, or how to use a file or hammer, but I am not making much progress. They're not bad kids, but they're a bit allergic to what they see as "hard work".
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Old 11.06.2017, 10:33
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

They are less watered down if you go for a federal diploma rather than a cantonal.

Tom
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Old 11.06.2017, 14:59
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

I understand about the "bottom feeders" who are allergic to what they see as "hard work", and I find them very difficult to motivate. Annoying and sad though that attitude is, especially if coupled with a sense of entitlement, I still feel sorry for young folk who are forced to do an apprenticeship when they truly have no interest in so doing, and do not understand that this is for them, for their own life.

At the moment I'm dealing with the opposite end of the scale. This young person wants to learn lots, wishes she could go to school more often, works hard and is really interested in the material.

The difficulty lies in channeling that enthusiasm into the required structures. We are, indeed, having to determine what "the absolutely minimalist route to a bit of paper" entails, so that, next to the consistent interest in gainging more understanding and broadening knowlege, at least the formal requirements can be fulfilled.

Thanks for the links.
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Old 11.06.2017, 15:15
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

I can not tell you about the VA, but back in the days when there was no VA we had a mock final exam at my work place. It was normally graded and influenced the semesters grades as any other exam. I assume it will be the same with Probe-VA that it may influence the semester grade, whereas the real VA will be graded separately and will marked accordingly in the final transcript. Best ask Teacher/Lehrmeister about grading.

I have seen some well done and interesting VA of high quality. But one thing I have seen even in this very well done piece of work is a shabby citation style. If you know how it should be done, then please show the person good academic citation and and specially citing original sources.

Unfortunately, citation is not a topic in Swiss primary schools as it is for example in the U.S. where it is thought as part of Science Fair projects.
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Old 05.04.2018, 16:34
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

Unlike the real VA, the Probe-VA isn't obligatory and has equal value to any other test you have to take during the apprenticeship program. I know this because I am an apprentice. The main theme for the Probe-VA is chosen by the teacher. The main theme for the real deal is chosen by the canton, so in my case Basel. The Probe-VA is only there so you get a feel for the real thing. It doesn't have to be marked, but the teacher likes to do that so that us apprentices do it properly and treat it like the real deal. It is arguably a gift from the teacher, because they don't have to do one and I know my class really appreciated that ours let us do not just one but two.

If you fail the Probe-VA then you're alright, you can still get a good average at the end of the apprenticeship. If you fail the real VA... Well... You better not mess up in the Allgemeinbildungsunterichtsabschlussprüfung (ABU-Abschlussprüfung for short. It has another name but I can't quite remember it right now). The average you get from those two counts 20% for the qualification you get at the end. 40% is the practical exam and the other 20% comes from the average of all semesters and the BK (Berufkenntniss)

I hope this clears some things up.
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Old 06.04.2018, 14:11
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

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You better not mess up in the Allgemeinbildungsunterichtsabschlussprüfung (ABU-Abschlussprüfung for short. It has another name but I can't quite remember it right now). T
Lehrabschlussprüfung or LAP.
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Old 06.04.2018, 14:37
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

No, LAP is the whole thing, so that would be the VA, the ABU-Prüfung (looked it up recently. That's what it's called), the IPA (individuelle praktische arbeiten) and the BK. But thanks anyway.
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Old 06.04.2018, 15:02
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

Thanks very much, LAB.
In a three-year apprenticeship, would the Probe-VA be in the second year, and the real-deal VA in the third year?

Are there any parts of the entire LAP which are completed entirely in the second year, so they don't have to be re-done in the third year?
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Old 06.04.2018, 16:27
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

Generally yes, the Probe-VA is in the second year and the real deal in the third.

It depends on the apprenticeship and the company. In the apprenticeship I'm doing as well as the company I get to work for, the LAP is completed in the final year, which in my case starts this May. A different apprenticeship of the same company has already completed a part of the LAP, which is a part of the BK.

But the last 20% of the LAP that I forgot to mention is called the Erfahrungsnote, which consists out of the Schulsemesterzeugnisse and the üKs (überbetriebliche Kürse) so in a sense some parts of the LAP are completed during the entire apprenticeship.
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Old 06.04.2018, 21:30
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

Oh, wow, that's complicated. One would need a qualification just to get one's head around all these bits and pieces which make up the whole. No wonder it dazes folk!
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Old 07.04.2018, 16:54
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

It sounds more complicated than it is. Glad I could help
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Old 15.04.2018, 07:03
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

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Lehrabschlussprüfung or LAP.
It‘s QV nowadays. For Qualifikationsverfahren.
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Old 15.04.2018, 16:39
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

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Oh, wow, that's complicated. One would need a qualification just to get one's head around all these bits and pieces which make up the whole. No wonder it dazes folk!
That's why there indeed is a qualification for this

Psychologue (conseiller) en orientation professionelle is usually the one to go over one's portfolio and direct towards the right exam, degree and career path here, en terrain. Then there are uni and cantonal departments designing the system of programs, with corresponding exams.
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Old 15.04.2018, 18:54
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

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It‘s QV nowadays. For Qualifikationsverfahren.
True, but it the work place you'll still hear it LAP. In the same way you'll hear Lehrling, when the correct word is Berufsauszubildende.

I still say 'O' levels
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Old 16.04.2018, 09:30
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

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True, but it the work place you'll still hear it LAP. In the same way you'll hear Lehrling, when the correct word is Berufsauszubildende.

I still say 'O' levels
Sure, I mix up the terms myself sometimes.
Oh did it change again? I am still stuck with Lernende 😅
These guys at the SBFI really seem to bored 😊

Last edited by Elu; 16.04.2018 at 09:31. Reason: Typo
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Old 16.04.2018, 10:14
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

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True, but it the work place you'll still hear it LAP. In the same way you'll hear Lehrling, when the correct word is Berufsauszubildende.
The correct name is Stift, which is defined es "Kopflose Niete"

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Sure, I mix up the terms myself sometimes.
Oh did it change again? I am still stuck with Lernende ��
These guys at the SBFI really seem to bored ��
Officially still Lernende
https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...860/index.html


But isn't the change from LAP to QV a rather recent one? If I am not mistaken the last LAP were 2017 and the first QV will be summer 2018.
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Old 16.04.2018, 15:06
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Re: Apprenticeship VA "Vertiefungsarbeit"

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But isn't the change from LAP to QV a rather recent one? If I am not mistaken the last LAP were 2017 and the first QV will be summer 2018.


Could vary with type of apprenticeship. Terminology can be defined in the "Bildungsverordnung; BiVo". Each EFZ and EBA apprenticeship derives from its own "Bildungsplan; BiPla" which is based on its BiVo. BiVo and BiPla have to be reworked every 5 years. Therefore its possible that changes don't happen at the same time.

I've been writing final exams for 4 years now and they have always been called QV. I wrote an LAP in 2006 though.


Informally everyone talks of LAP and Lehrlinge ofc.
I thought that after leaving big pharma I'd have less acronyms to learn......

Last edited by Elu; 16.04.2018 at 15:26.
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