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  #21  
Old 06.01.2019, 22:44
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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better that you attack to the point rather than throwing nonsense to the air.


its not MY assumption. it is Mr. Mitra who is world wide recognized for his experience in education and technology..
that is why I added the TED link. but if you are lacking the patience to watch it, simply google "does today's education system fit the future?"


same goes to Jim2007
When you have documented evidence specifically relating to Switzerland get back to us, otherwise it just more of your BS.
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  #22  
Old 06.01.2019, 22:44
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

Maybe I was somewhat unclear:



The assumption is: "The current school system is not 100% capable...".
maybe it is only 90% capable, and pls forgive me all the teachers here.


Ill try to give example to the basic idea (inspired by swisscanmom) for group of 5 kids:
Mon - Fri: kids go to school as usual


Mon (afternoon) - I take all of the to a walk in the forest (because Im a biologist and can explain if needed).

Tue - (afternoon) Free
Wed (afternoon) - other parent take the kids to science museum (because she is an engineer)
Thu - (afternoon) Free
Fri - (afternoon) - other parent take the kids to adventure playgrund


In all these days, kids can explore and play as much as they want. It is up to the parents to provide the plan (also playing is included in the plan).


Indeed, school do these activities, but not in groups of 5 and not in the frequency that small group can do.


lastly,
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We just call it ‘parenting’ in our house. School teaches the school stuff and we do the ongoing soft skills / social skills / eat your greens / don’t be an idiot at work / growing up balanced stuff. Don’t need any fancy-pants help group for that.
that is exactly what I mean, but if you and your partner work 100%, it is difficult to perform this by yourself.


so how about Murloc's view?
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If you want to organize activities with the kids with fewer supervisors so that other parents have time off, then it sounds like a good idea, but I wouldn't make it about teaching.
but instead of just throwing the kids in a kind of a Spielgruppe style, why not to have a second look at what can stimulate them better, and provide corresponding environment?
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  #23  
Old 06.01.2019, 22:45
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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...... Kids need time to just be kids.
This.
And that's the time they learn the most!

Give your children space in their free time, let them follow their own interests (don't judge or comment their interests! My mother used to say "your interest in ... (this, that and the other) ... will not help you earn a living later". HA! How wrong SHE was. Not that I cared about that back then.)

If the child needs a basic tool to follow it's interests (the computer in the TED-clip,) a musical instrument (do.not.judge.the.music.it.decides.to.play.on.it), a skate board, what ever then provide it. And nope, the child does not want a PRS guitar, the latest Nike outfit for skate-boarders - you're interfering again - , it just needs the basic tool to go ahead.

Show interest in your children's interest, don't rate the subjects of interest. That would already be an amazing service to your child!!
I have a neighbour, even in the sandbox he kept telling his two year old daughter "no, not like this, you gotta do it like that". A sand-cake for Christ sake!!! He drove me crazy (reading my book in the garden made me a witness) and over time it became obvious, he drove her crazy too. LOL. Good girl is all I can say.

If you feel it is absolutely essential that your children do things your way (or the "normal" way) - which it is NOT, beleive me, how's the world gonna advance?! Anyway if that's what you believe, try: "That's how you do it? Wow! I do it this way, let me show you, what do you think of it?" Child might take a thing or two over from you but child might also point out, that your way is not smart/efficient and it will even tell you why.
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Old 06.01.2019, 22:56
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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the child does not want a PRS guitar
Nor my '61 Les Paul, '60 Junior, '64 Jag, etc.

But they do want my bikes!

Tom
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Old 06.01.2019, 22:57
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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..... first, lets agree on the following assumption:
The current school system is not 100% capable to provide education which will qualify the children to cope with life (e.g. future work environment) in future, or to develop a skill set which will help them in life when they become adults......
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And does anyone here actually agree with that stupid assumption?

Tom
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..... its not MY assumption. it is Mr. Mitra who is world wide recognized for his experience in education and technology..
that is why I added the TED link. but if you are lacking the patience to watch it, simply google "does today's education system fit the future?"
No that's not Mr. Mitra's assumption. You did not listen well to the speech you linked yourself.
Where I feel the need to emphasize: The first and most important thing you need to learn and apply at all times is: Listen attentively. Specially to your kids.

Mr. Mitra throws in a qustion - or even less, installs a "funny" tool - and walks away. When he returned, he LISTENED.

By the way, if you might think you taught your kid to speak. You didn't. Or you taught it how to walk? A major technique. You didn't.
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Old 07.01.2019, 00:22
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

Why does everybody assume that these mentors/parents/whoever who would supervise in rotation some kind of a learning group - would actually be dead set on "telling kids what to do". Teaching works all sorts of ways and just because OP requests parents to be these mentors, we don't have to assume he actually means annoying or idiotic parents have to take turns in "telling kids what to do" or that they wouldn't know how to listen to the kids or let them develop the learning in their own way. Willing to spend time with kids doesn't have to equal being the worst parenting stereotype imaginable. I am a teacher and I know a lot of committed, envolved parents who are not helicopter nor expecting kids to over-achieve or not have any childhood. They actually enjoy doing their projects and assignements with kids, sharing the learning journey, without imposing some power-game. It should be voluntary, anyways. Kids can form some nice friendships this way..or change attitudes to learning, if they happen to be invalidated by school, have phobias or are too shy to share at school how much they know...etc. This has nothing to do with Switzerland, it sounds like a cool project. Again, I wouldn't diss the school system, be it state or private, in order to promote this activity, but it can be a good complement. As a teacher - whatever extra kids learn elsewhere and enjoy learning it, is awesome. If through a support group, or hanging out at neighbors or a library or a playground, is irrelevant. My kid asks for her extra-curricular tutor, I think it is a good sign.
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Old 07.01.2019, 02:23
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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Hi,


Inspired by Sugata Mitra ideas, I was looking for a group of parents who would like to reinforce the knowledge of their children (on top of the kindergarden\school system).
The basic principle is that a small group of children is established. Then each day, another parent teaches the children group different topic (depends on the parent education\experience and the group requirements).
It is somewhat related to creation of a social network, where each parent who's teaching, has the full interest to do his/her best to teach the group, as other parents will do.

I heard that the above setup is running already in some countries, but Im not sure it exists in CH. After all, it seems to me simply as an initiative of some parents who care for their children education.

I tried to search the forum in regard to home school, but most posts were related to the challenges parents face with the Swiss conventional education system in case they want to have full home school for their children.
The thread title is "Education reinforcement at home".

The trigger reason:

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....first, lets agree on the following assumption:
The current school system is not 100% capable to provide education which will qualify the children to cope with life (e.g. future work environment) in future, or to develop a skill set which will help them in life when they become adults....
No idea how most of us came to our conclusions and reactions

Mr. Mitra is on the right track - his experiments shown in the video were great - it's not new though. I had the privilege to go to a school where teacher-centred teaching (Frontalunterricht) was not the way to teach.
As it was an international school yes it could even happen that one would get the task in a language that was not one's own, depending on what the subject of the chosen class was .... but at least not a language that we had to teach ourselves first
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Old 07.01.2019, 08:30
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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And this TED rubbish has exactly WHAT to do with the Swiss educational system?

And who the hell is TED?

Tom
Tom, not everyone wants to do things the way you did it neither they think the way you do. Let people explore their possibilities and answer their own questions without being so categorically dismissive and contemptuous. It's basic courtesy, did you teach that your kids too or did they have to learn it from someone else? I'm sure yours are great grown-ups and you are past these issues, but please let the younger parents deal with their own stuff. And yes, maybe the TED rubbish talks and reading various theories is part of how some of us are trying to fulfill this role.
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Old 07.01.2019, 10:29
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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Why does everybody assume that these mentors/parents/whoever who would supervise in rotation some kind of a learning group - would actually be dead set on "telling kids what to do". Teaching works all sorts of ways and just because OP requests parents to be these mentors, we don't have to assume he actually means annoying or idiotic parents have to take turns in "telling kids what to do" or that they wouldn't know how to listen to the kids or let them develop the learning in their own way. Willing to spend time with kids doesn't have to equal being the worst parenting stereotype imaginable. I am a teacher and I know a lot of committed, involved parents who are not helicopter nor expecting kids to over-achieve or not have any childhood. They actually enjoy doing their projects and assignments with kids, sharing the learning journey, without imposing some power-game. It should be voluntary, anyways. Kids can form some nice friendships this way..or change attitudes to learning, if they happen to be invalidated by school, have phobias or are too shy to share at school how much they know...etc. This has nothing to do with Switzerland, it sounds like a cool project. Again, I wouldn't diss the school system, be it state or private, in order to promote this activity, but it can be a good complement. As a teacher - whatever extra kids learn elsewhere and enjoy learning it, is awesome. If through a support group, or hanging out at neighbors or a library or a playground, is irrelevant. My kid asks for her extra-curricular tutor, I think it is a good sign.
Nobody said that.

Most of the comments are pointing out that schools more or less do a good job of educating kids here without parents having to somehow laboriously go over it all again. However, this is what was first posted:

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I was looking for a group of parents who would like to reinforce the knowledge of their children (on top of the kindergarten\school system).
The basic principle is that a small group of children is established. Then each day, another parent teaches the children group different topic (depends on the parent education\experience and the group requirements).
It is somewhat related to creation of a social network, where each parent who's teaching, has the full interest to do his/her best to teach the group, as other parents will do.
There's a liberal smattering of the word "teaching" and linking it with what's been going on at school and kindergarten, so you can see how it was probably giving off more than a whiff of sitting the kids round and lecturing them.

OK, so the OP then later clarified that it would entail various trips to the forest, playground, science museum, etc. but that's pretty much what parents do anyway. You tend to link up with parents with kids of a similar age to do activities so at least you've got someone to chat to while the kids are all pulling the place apart and blowing off steam. Boom - there's your "teaching group". Turns out I've been a maverick all these years...

That pretty much only works with kids under about 9 years old, though. I can't imagine my soon-to-be teen son getting on board with a jolly to the forest with mums and chums to ask about acorns and make a stick figure, to be fair.

I guess the OP's ideas and assumptions would work well in countries where the school system has gaps and is under-represented but here there's so much pressure on kids from the get-go, it would be counter-productive to micro-manage their free-time, too.
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Old 07.01.2019, 10:48
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

I prefer to go out and play

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for those interested, there's a series in this week's economist on child education.
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Old 07.01.2019, 12:05
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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I guess the OP's ideas and assumptions would work well in countries where the school system has gaps and is under-represented but here there's so much pressure on kids from the get-go, it would be counter-productive to micro-manage their free-time, too.
One of Sugata Mitra's ideas though (presented in other video btw), which personally I found it to be rather accurate, is that every country has a few places where "good teachers won't go" and "usually these are the places where troubles are coming from". And not only in the so-called developing countries. But anyway, we digress.

In Switzerland I heard many parents complaining that the children are not encouraged much in school and teachers and not exploring their kids' potential. Often times I heard various parents discussing about changing schools or classes etc. I always tell them to do what their instinct tells them to do and to not let anyone else set the expectations for their kids - they usually start low and...remain low.
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Old 07.01.2019, 21:03
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

Those are the parents who don't take time with their kids... they are used to outsourcing and find it too much of a chore to play with their children. I've had parents who thought their child was a genius. Some of those kids couldn't even dress themselves, were far behind in being able to play, have fun, make friends, argue and make peace with other children without the help of an adult.

Since they had always only looked about their own little genius, they had never realized - or found out - that THEIR child was far behind ordinary children.

Funnily, the little geniuses are always there. But you have to spot them which is somehow not too easy and you have to be careful, I know that from my own experience. Lately I asked one of my shy kindergarteners if one part of the castle he had built was a drawbridge: "No, those are solar cells!" he beamed. We'll do something about it! there is hope in those little, shy boys and girls!
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Old 08.01.2019, 00:07
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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Those are the parents who don't take time with their kids... they are used to outsourcing and find it too much of a chore to play with their children. I've had parents who thought their child was a genius. Some of those kids couldn't even dress themselves, were far behind in being able to play, have fun, make friends, argue and make peace with other children without the help of an adult.

Since they had always only looked about their own little genius, they had never realized - or found out - that THEIR child was far behind ordinary children.

Funnily, the little geniuses are always there. But you have to spot them which is somehow not too easy and you have to be careful, I know that from my own experience. Lately I asked one of my shy kindergarteners if one part of the castle he had built was a drawbridge: "No, those are solar cells!" he beamed. We'll do something about it! there is hope in those little, shy boys and girls!
Not all parents who complain are delusional persons. I actually didn't expect this type of input from a qualified educator tbh.
Some children do have difficulties with their fine motor skills or socialisation, or both, but that is no indicator of their intelligence. But anyway, thank you. It helps having a clearer picture.


OP,
I changed my mind. I fully support your idea. I think you should really start your own "support" group, be it for extra-teaching or just socialising...if you believe your children can be helped to fulfil their potential through it. Good luck!

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I'm not a fan of the current school system because of its one size fits all basis. Every child is put through the same system and measured on a set of points that only apply to some people. Not all children learn in the same way, but are tested in the same out-dated manner. Some very talented people, and clever people, leave school with poor qualifications because of this.

However your assumption is totally wrong because the current system is turning out young adults who cope very well in adult life, for the most part, and has done so for many generations.

Where I would agree with you is that the work environment is changing rapidly and the school system is seriously lagging behind. It has always been this way, but more so now. Some parents are aware of this, it's just teachers and government who have their heads in the sand.
Some ideas worth noticing in your post, nigelr. I don't totally agree with you, but I think you have a point here. And yes, the school system will be seriously lagging behind the work environment. But as long as you can afford importing qualified people...all is good, no?...I suppose.

Last edited by greenmount; 08.01.2019 at 00:42.
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Old 08.01.2019, 09:16
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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And yes, the school system will be seriously lagging behind the work environment.
Why is this like the new mantra everyone keeps on repeating? Schooling in general is not meant to prepare you for the work environment, it's meant to prepare you to know things and stimulate you to think. As long as one is able to think and assess the surrounding environment he/she will adapt to the work environment, whatever it is. Moreover, no policy maker will ever be able to predict what the work environment will be in 5-10-15 years so please don't ask from them to adjust the curriculum to be more "work environment friendly". If anything, we need kids that are able to think rather than corporate robots. There will be a time for that too.
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Old 08.01.2019, 10:27
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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When you have documented evidence specifically relating to Switzerland get back to us

Wow... really wow... *slow clap*
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Old 08.01.2019, 10:31
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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Not true at all, have you visited a school lately? LP 21 is changing how teaching, testing and assessments are done.
In the new assessments memorizing facts is no longer the key skill needed to do well. They have to apply their knowledge. A creative thinker may do better than a kid who can memorize well. Plus, the Swiss system allows for many options and ways to reach different career paths, with its apprenticeship system, for all different types of learners. Which is also why I am a proponent of selection after grade 6, exactly because not all learners fit into one path.
I think in kanton Aargau (where I am) LP21 was delayed/reluctantly accepted - whatever - but a lot of the teachers didn't support it. Teachers from the villages around here even went on a march to get it stopped.

The swiss system when you leave school is excellent with different paths, I can't argue against that, but the schools themselves I don't think are any better than any other developed country.

Common things said in both the schools my daughter has attended are "class work isn't worked through properly, just handed out", "answers are not checked", "homework isn't corrected". When we meet with other parents the topic isn't ever how good the teaching is.

Not all teachers are good and not all are bad, but the system itself doesn't serve the children as well as it could. It is better here than in the UK, but that doesn't mean it is good enough.
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Old 08.01.2019, 10:35
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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Why is this like the new mantra everyone keeps on repeating? Schooling in general is not meant to prepare you for the work environment, it's meant to prepare you to know things and stimulate you to think. As long as one is able to think and assess the surrounding environment he/she will adapt to the work environment, whatever it is. Moreover, no policy maker will ever be able to predict what the work environment will be in 5-10-15 years so please don't ask from them to adjust the curriculum to be more "work environment friendly". If anything, we need kids that are able to think rather than corporate robots. There will be a time for that too.
School was "invented" exactly to prepare people for the work environment. Factory owners needed workers who blindly followed what they were told to do, and not to think, and in the long summer break the children were expected to help on the farms. That's the only reason there is a long summer break.

I agree with bits of your post, kids able to think for example.
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Old 08.01.2019, 10:37
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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Common things said in both the schools my daughter has attended are "class work isn't worked through properly, just handed out", "answers are not checked", "homework isn't corrected". When we meet with other parents the topic isn't ever how good the teaching is.

Not all teachers are good and not all are bad, but the system itself doesn't serve the children as well as it could. It is better here than in the UK, but that doesn't mean it is good enough.
There's no system that can compensate for bad people. There's no curriculum that will offset bad teachers. Both of my kids are in local school in BL and we are very happy with teachers, the way homework is assigned, checked, etc. In fact, my only complaint to the Swiss system is the non-nonsensical "religious studies" from the very beginning, but apart from that we're quite happy. The only extracurricular activities our boys do are non-academic (sports, music, etc)
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Old 08.01.2019, 10:41
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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Why is this like the new mantra everyone keeps on repeating? Schooling in general is not meant to prepare you for the work environment, it's meant to prepare you to know things and stimulate you to think. As long as one is able to think and assess the surrounding environment he/she will adapt to the work environment, whatever it is. Moreover, no policy maker will ever be able to predict what the work environment will be in 5-10-15 years so please don't ask from them to adjust the curriculum to be more "work environment friendly". If anything, we need kids that are able to think rather than corporate robots. There will be a time for that too.
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School was "invented" exactly to prepare people for the work environment. Factory owners needed workers who blindly followed what they were told to do, and not to think, and in the long summer break the children were expected to help on the farms. That's the only reason there is a long summer break.

I agree with bits of your post, kids able to think for example.
Just watch the first few mins of the vid in the opening post. It explains that the current education system, adopted by most of the world, was laid down by the Victorians exactly to churn out people for the working environment. The issue is this hasn't been updated accordingly in all that time.

As for the Swiss system, the net result seems to be pretty good quality. Most people either end up in further education or in an apprenticeship and the economy / unemployment / standard of living levels seem pretty favourable so it can't be all bad.
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Old 08.01.2019, 10:47
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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...laid down by the Victorians exactly to churn out people for the working environment. The issue is this hasn't been updated accordingly in all that time.
Hasn't been updated?! I am not sure when was the last time I helped my son throw coal in a steam engine or explained how to operate a Victorian sewing machine. Things have moved on and the issues we face are not issues with the system, but with the teachers. And this is the way it will always be as the impact from schooling is directly correlated with teachers, not systems. Just look at the best schooling systems in the world and you will see a myriad process differences, but one commonality: the emphasis on WHO is teaching.
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