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Old 08.01.2019, 17:19
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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I do not know the formula to calculate the volume of a cone. I could google it and have an answer in an instant. Is it the correct one? Who knows. But there is an other option: Thanks to a good education I can derive the formula and with critical thinking I can check its correctness.
Hah!

My daughter needed to do just that some years ago and I also couldn't remember the formula and was too lazy to goggle it, so I solved it by integration!

Tom
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Old 08.01.2019, 17:42
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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absolutely. we can simply teach children how to google at the age of, say, 6 and then skip all the later years of education. think of the productivity savings! we could bring people into the workforce at age 7 instead of 21!
To be fair to the OP, I don't think that's what he ment and we are a bit nitpicking.
There really is a shift in the type of knowledge further generations will need and the education system has to adapt. It tried with Lehrplan 21, from my POV they exaggerated, but I'll see the outcome in some year in my classes.
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Old 08.01.2019, 19:15
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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absolutely. we can simply teach children how to google at the age of, say, 6 and then skip all the later years of education. think of the productivity savings! we could bring people into the workforce at age 7 instead of 21!
That would be late compared to now - and the UNO is actually fighting this.


Actually, while I love this "new" (compared to when I grew up) possibility, to teach children googling is the solution is a dangerous path to take.
Somebody will have to enter the information into the internet. There will be fewer people who actually have knowledge and experience to supply this information. Knowledge will - again - be the privilege of a few in a 100 years or so. All the others will only parrot. Parrot ANYTHING.
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Old 08.01.2019, 19:41
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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@gaburko, this is the key point. due to the changes in the environment, we do not need 12 years of "preparation to know". we can simply google for what we want to know...
This is precisely the attitude you do not want to instill in your children.

Looking up the answer is not knowledge. Being able to derive the answer from what you already know, as well as being able to cross check your lemma with an experiment (even a thought experiment)... that is knowledge.

If your foster a child's curiosity, and present them the world as a puzzle which can be figured out with a relatively small intellectual toolbox then they'll get on well.

Baking a cake is, in a way, a kind of working through a chemistry problem, which (if you live, and propagate, this world view) makes chemistry a bit more appealing. And cake... is always cake.
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Old 08.01.2019, 20:26
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

Couldn't agree more. Always tell kids that maths is just a game / puzzle, but it's a one that they'll play every day of their life.

When I was a kid, my friend's dad who was a greengrocer (remember them), used to play the alphabet game with us. Most of us will have played this at some point... Name a country, capital city, animal, etc...beginning with each letter of the alphabet. The next Christmas, I asked for an atlas.
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Old 08.01.2019, 21:12
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

My two penn'orth...


Amongst other things, "modern " day education needs to prepare students for a lot of jobs that haven't been invented yet. At least that's been the party line for as long as I've been in the game. Along with the key, quantifiable, subjects it also as to do a lot of reinforcing of the equally important "soft" skills that make the world go around. We do, as others have said, need to produce young people who can operate independently and also work effectively with others, people who can think critically and evaluate. Being able to transfer, not compartmentalise, skills is also vital. These are difficult skills to teach but should be taught and reinforced by every teacher, every place of learning. Every home?

While the importance of parents/guardians who absolutely give several damns about their children's education cannnot be underestimated, there's a fine line between support and interference. In my experience, the latter can do more harm than good.

Regarding the assertion that it's not education systems that are ineffective, but teachers... the assumption that a poor/mediocre system will still produce excellent results if it has excellent teachers... I disagree. It doesn't take long for outstanding practitioners to become disillusioned within a system that isn't fit for purpose. Blaming the teachers when quite often they're operating with one hand tied behind their back is unfair at best, hopelessly naive at worst.

Kids need time to be kids. They also need time to reflect upon the learning they have already done that day. Down time is crucial. Not sure cramming extra stuff in that may have limited relevance or may even confuse the issue us the way to go.

Re the Victorian thing: wasn't the whole point of a lot of it to level the field? To ensure that even the poorest, even the girls, had a greater chance of a better life by becoming literate.
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Old 08.01.2019, 21:28
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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This is precisely the attitude you do not want to instill in your children.

Looking up the answer is not knowledge.
Not to mention that anything that you can find on the web is hardly created out of thin air but purely based on humans' skills and knowledge. Seriously, where do some people think absolutely anything comes from?!

Imagine a world where everyone thought like OP, i.e. you can just google whatever it is you need to know. Well 200 years down the road that oughta be interesting. Head --> wall.
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Old 08.01.2019, 21:51
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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Not to mention that anything that you can find on the web is hardly created out of thin air but purely based on humans' skills and knowledge. Seriously, where do some people think absolutely anything comes from?!

Imagine a world where everyone thought like OP, i.e. you can just google whatever it is you need to know. Well 200 years down the road that oughta be interesting. Head --> wall.



really..?
do you remember the time that you were driving your car while navigating with paper maps? honestly, probably not so well.

that will be the case when you will ask your kids if they remember the time that they didnt consult google for any question which they didnt know.
especially the generation which was born during the Alexa/Siri/Google home/Pepper era.



dont get me wrong - Im not advocating the human-machine interface/technology and its cons and pros.
I just point out that it is inevitable. so the question is: if it is inevitable, what is the least that we can do for our children to live in such reality.


dont use/rely on google = dont use/rely on your car gps
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Old 08.01.2019, 21:54
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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really..?
do you remember the time that you were driving your car while navigating with paper maps? honestly, probably not so well.

Yea, but maps didn´t lie. And you are missing the point here.

Do you believe all you read when googling?
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Old 08.01.2019, 22:02
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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really..?
do you remember the time that you were driving your car while navigating with paper maps? honestly, probably not so well.

that will be the case when you will ask your kids if they remember the time that they didnt consult google for any question which they didnt know.
especially the generation which was born during the Alexa/Siri/Google home/Pepper era.



dont get me wrong - Im not advocating the human-machine interface/technology and its cons and pros.
I just point out that it is inevitable. so the question is: if it is inevitable, what is the least that we can do for our children to live in such reality.


dont use/rely on google = dont use/rely on your car gps
To use the internet, scrutinise everything they find there, do detailed and broad research, give the subject a lot of thought - then draw their own conclusions.
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Old 08.01.2019, 22:06
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

PS: I navigated perfectly well with the paper maps - found the craziest places as I well remember.

But the Navi took the stress off, worrying about being on time is a thing of the past. I love my navi!

I still often disobey it as it just does not know all the short cuts I know.
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Old 08.01.2019, 22:08
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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really..?
do you remember the time that you were driving your car while navigating with paper maps? honestly, probably not so well.

that will be the case when you will ask your kids if they remember the time that they didnt consult google for any question which they didnt know.
especially the generation which was born during the Alexa/Siri/Google home/Pepper era.



dont get me wrong - Im not advocating the human-machine interface/technology and its cons and pros.
I just point out that it is inevitable. so the question is: if it is inevitable, what is the least that we can do for our children to live in such reality.


dont use/rely on google = dont use/rely on your car gps
You're completely missing the point. Everything you do comes from knowledge that either you or initially someone else acquired. The accuracy or lack thereof of Google vs real maps or whatever else is irrelevant. They are tools, that's it. Tools change and progress of course. But the point is that you cannot google anything if no one has knowledge on a) how to create and maintain Google, b) how to create and manage content to google and c) how to apply and use Google. Knowledge is entirely based on humans no matter what. Even AI is based on humans' skills, abilities, knowledge. If everyone thought like you i.e. you could "just google", but hasn't actually acquired any knowledge or skills, there would be nothing to google in the first place.

To teach a kid to "just google" would be the same as saying "just ask Grandpa" for any question they may want answered and leave it at that, with zero encouragement to use other sources (books, schools, teachers, parents, friends, the internet and a lot more). Just like Grandpa isn't the source of all knowledge, neither is Google (albeit for different reasons), and either way both Grandpa and Google have to get their knowledge from somewhere - i.e. other humans and their works.

Yes philosophical to an extent, but that statement was just too ridiculous (and scary)
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Old 08.01.2019, 22:18
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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really..?
do you remember the time that you were driving your car while navigating with paper maps? honestly, probably not so well.
I've only had a satnav for 5yrs and managed perfectly well without one for the first 31yrs of driving. You might find that a lot of people here have also driven extensively without one.

Going back to your earlier point about using friends who are experts in their field to accompany kids to science museums, etc... With most people who excel in their given field, there comes a point where it becomes difficult for them to impart their knowledge to someone who is completely new to the subject. That's why teachers are trained in how to educate.
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Old 09.01.2019, 02:02
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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With most people who excel in their given field, there comes a point where it becomes difficult for them to impart their knowledge to someone who is completely new to the subject. That's why teachers are trained in how to educate.
Yep. This. One of the (on paper) smartest guys on my PGCE course was basically told just to teach in post -16 colleges. He couldn't make his subject accessible for younger students - and nor could he understand why his one shot explanation wouldn't do the trick. You can be the best in your field: doesn't mean you can communicate your knowledge and skills effectively.
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Old 09.01.2019, 07:07
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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really..?
do you remember the time that you were driving your car while navigating with paper maps? honestly, probably not so well.
...
dont get me wrong - Im not advocating the human-machine interface/technology and its cons and pros.
I just point out that it is inevitable. so the question is: if it is inevitable, what is the least that we can do for our children to live in such reality.

dont use/rely on google = dont use/rely on your car gps
My point is that you are confusing information with knowledge.

Knowledge is deeper than information... information is the data of is knowledge is the skill of how.

I remember a time when people who fixed things understood a whole host of facts that they rarely even stated explicitly. Now, anyone who can find youtube can fool themselves into thinking they can repair their car, machine parts, weld etc. etc.

A mechanic doesn't just swap parts, a machinist doesn't just change the shape of bits of metal, an electrician doesn't just connect wires.

Don't get me wrong, there is a huge amount of information available on the internet - it's a great supplement to even a small amount of knowledge.

But it's knowledge that is at the core of the ability to do. Information may enable you, but it's knowledge which empowers you. Raising a child is about empowering them - first you give them shoes, then you help them build their own wings.
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Old 09.01.2019, 10:20
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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that will be the case when you will ask your kids if they remember the time that they didnt consult google for any question which they didnt know.
especially the generation which was born during the Alexa/Siri/Google home/Pepper era.
You're not clear yourself what exactly you want to do with this education group of yours. What do you suggest? Hand the kids a google assistant mini and let them talk to it to learn?

Let me throw at you a random fact: the US style liberal-arts education happens to be the best type of education an undergrad can do now. Somehow, empirical data suggests that liberal-arts graduates are more likely to succeed in general vs. their highly-specialized peers coming from schools with a deeper, but more narrow area of study. Why would that be? Think about that
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Old 09.01.2019, 10:45
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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My point is that you are confusing information with knowledge.

Knowledge is deeper than information... information is the data of is knowledge is the skill of how.

I remember a time when people who fixed things understood a whole host of facts that they rarely even stated explicitly. Now, anyone who can find youtube can fool themselves into thinking they can repair their car, machine parts, weld etc. etc.

A mechanic doesn't just swap parts, a machinist doesn't just change the shape of bits of metal, an electrician doesn't just connect wires.

Don't get me wrong, there is a huge amount of information available on the internet - it's a great supplement to even a small amount of knowledge.

But it's knowledge that is at the core of the ability to do. Information may enable you, but it's knowledge which empowers you. Raising a child is about empowering them - first you give them shoes, then you help them build their own wings.
Brilliant! (lets say I agree with you for the sake of discussion, although I wire the electricity myself in my apartment and I'm not an electrician...).

Lets look at the following 3 examples, thinking of information (or knowledge)as a source for power: Governments, companies, schools/uni
Government: in the past (before internet time), information was held very tight by the government and its officials. From extreme versions like the Soviet Union to more democratic (some will say just for appearance) as in the US.
This was mainly under the assumption of: Info is power. I hold the info - so I'm powerful and therefore can manipulate/control the others.
Now, the situation is different, especially after Snowden popped up.
which means that governments are less powerful than before. maybe that's one reason why they can`t hold long time as they did in the past.

Companies: in the past (before internet time), information was held very tight by the boss and his/her close circle. But now, employers become less powerful than before, and it seems that employees get more demanding in comparison to the past. maybe that`s one reason why employees turnover rate is high and the concept of "life time employment" almost vanished from the world.

Schools/Universities: in the past (before internet time), information was held almost solely by the Professors. The teaching method was: a professor come in a class with students, provide information for 45 minutes and go out. the next Prof. come in, provide info and go out.
The students had to absorb this info during 3-4 years and do with it something, whether it was useful or not.
Now, the situation is different, especially after the online education (e.g. Cursera) popped up.
maybe that`s one reason why some of the conventional education institutes are struggling and some members in this thread mention that "the system should be updated".

Now comes the question, so how to obtain knowledge?
Indeed, as you mentioned "Information may enable you, but it's knowledge which empowers you".
If information is available anywhere/anytime (and this is the case), we don't have to make efforts anymore to obtain it. We can simply google it
We have to make efforts for the knowledge and empowerment, and that is the reason for my first post in this thread!
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Old 09.01.2019, 10:52
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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Schools/Universities: in the past (before internet time), information was held almost solely by the Professors. The teaching method was: a professor come in a class with students, provide information for 45 minutes and go out. the next Prof. come in, provide info and go out.
The students had to absorb this info during 3-4 years and do with it something, whether it was useful or not.
Now, the situation is different, especially after the online education (e.g. Cursera) popped up.
maybe that`s one reason why some of the conventional education institutes are struggling and some members in this thread mention that "the system should be updated".

Now comes the question, so how to obtain knowledge?
Indeed, as you mentioned "Information may enable you, but it's knowledge which empowers you".

If information is available anywhere/anytime (and this is the case), we don't have to make efforts anymore to obtain it. We can simply google it
We have to make efforts for the knowledge and empowerment, and that is the reason for my first post in this thread!
Just to pick up on the universities thing; students attend lectures with, depending on what you are studying, reasonably minimal information but you are expected to research much of the subject yourself having been given the topics, tools and methods to do that.

It's nothing to do with professors "holding onto the information". Most universities won't take you if you can't demonstrate the ability to study for yourself, or they will and, if you can't, you end up crashing out.

I think you are trying to see things in black and white. Students need the knowledge, teaching methods and experience of professors while also possessing the ability to use that as a springboard to research the subject, return to tutorials and critically discuss, edit and conclude by themselves.

Used to be done in libraries and labs, now the internet is an additional tool.
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Old 09.01.2019, 11:18
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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......
Used to be done in libraries and labs, now the internet is an additional tool.
I visited the Engineering and Science Library recently, and I think I didn't see a single book.


All bookshelves had been replaced with digital terminals.


Not to be pedantic (although I guess I am :P ), but the majority of the time, if you not doing the learning on the internet in STEM, you're not doing it right :P
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Old 09.01.2019, 11:33
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Re: Education reinforcement at home

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Now comes the question, so how to obtain knowledge?
Indeed, as you mentioned "Information may enable you, but it's knowledge which empowers you".
If information is available anywhere/anytime (and this is the case), we don't have to make efforts anymore to obtain it. We can simply google it
We have to make efforts for the knowledge and empowerment, and that is the reason for my first post in this thread!
At the risk of sounding like an old fart... you obtain knowledge by working for it, initially by amassing information.

A lot of schoolwork is just the grunt work of amassing the basic information which is the predecessor of knowledge. Chemistry, in particular, was a hard slog for me... it was just arbitrary "stuff" until one day (2nd Semester at the U iirc) it went "click" and I found I was able to manipulate, rather than merely calculate.

The trick, as a parent, is to show your children that the world around them is a place/thing which can be manipulated. If you're making something square with them ask "How could we check if that is square?" and if they say "Use a protractor or triangle", say "Yes, but what if it was big, like the living room?" And when they stare at you, off to the living room with them, and a folding ruler and show them the 3,4,5 triangle. Then point out that it can be multiples of any object in the ratio 3,4,5. Then say "That is what geometry is for."

Pretty much everyone reads (3x3)+(4x4)=(5x5) at some point in their schooling... very few use it to check if something is 90 Degrees.

You won't make geometry (or chemistry) any less of a slog, but if you can show the child that there is something useful to be done with it then they will be less inclined to lose heart.

I said "Lets figure it out" a lot when the children were younger, even when I could have just opened a book and pointed at a page of information.
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