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-   -   Homeschooling is banned in CH...[not really, it depends on Canton] (https://www.englishforum.ch/education/294148-homeschooling-banned-ch-not-really-depends-canton.html)

aladin 17.09.2019 21:29

Homeschooling is banned in CH...[not really, it depends on Canton]
 
again in the news :mad:


This is shameful. I can not fully understand the argumentation against it :msnshock:

Meerkat33 17.09.2019 21:35

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aladin (Post 3101240)
I can not fully understand the argumentation against it

very simply it's not a federal constitutional right, therefore the cantons rule and there's no recourse to federal law against a decision.

Belgianmum 17.09.2019 21:36

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...
 
If you read beyond the headline you will see that it is not the case.
The federal court upheld a ruling in Basel but other than that for the moment nothing has changed.
The decision to allow homeschooling or not is dependant on the canton, some allow it and some donít and for the ones that do allow it there are sometimes stringent rules.

MathNut 17.09.2019 21:37

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...
 
It was not banned, was simply considered "not a fundamental right" (more or less) and therefore thrown back to the cantons to decide for themselves. As they already do. Some ban it, others allow it subject to varying amounts and kinds of oversight.

Jim2007 17.09.2019 22:33

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aladin (Post 3101240)
This is shameful. I can not fully understand the argumentation against it :msnshock:

If you donít understand it how can you conclude that it is shameful?

Caleb 18.09.2019 08:00

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...
 
I love my kids and I want to do what's best for them. So even if I believe I can medicate them, as I'm no doctor, I'm not allowed to prescribe meds for them. Likewise, I have no pedagogic formation, nor have I proven to the state (which protects the basic right of education to all children) that I posess the knowledge and/or tools to teach. I personally find negligent for states to allow parents to homeschool children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyNzSW7I4qw

Urs Max 18.09.2019 08:52

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aladin (Post 3101240)
I can not fully understand the argumentation against it :msnshock:

It's quite simple:
The children are not the parents' property, they're persons with their own and inalienable rights.

Tom1234 18.09.2019 09:10

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3101340)
It's quite simple:
The children are not the parents' property, they're persons with their own and inalienable rights.

I'd say there a bit of hypocrisy here with regard to that. It wold appear children don't have their own rights as far as religion is concerned.

Why does religion have greater gravitas than education?

aladin 19.09.2019 08:15

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3101340)
It's quite simple:
The children are not the parents' property, they're persons with their own and inalienable rights.


How about: The children are not the parents' property, they are the state property..
We have to shape them in a certain form so they will perfectly fit to our society, each child at his own pre-determined location, without interference of any external force.
Homeschooling and other education forms might be non conforming frameworks, and therefore might be a threat to the conventional system.


Its obvious from the link I posted that its not completely banned in CH. I just wanted to indicate about the direction in CH regard alternative education system such as homeschooling.



I simply wonder why other (western, progressed, developed) countries allow this and some cantons in CH not?

Caleb 19.09.2019 08:22

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...[not really, it depends on Canton]
 
At the rate this convo is going we may be able to merge it with the "Neighbour forcing her religion on our children" thread very soon.

Chuff 19.09.2019 09:13

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...[not really, it depends on Canton]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aladin (Post 3101240)
again in the news :mad:


This is shameful. I can not fully understand the argumentation against it :msnshock:

The argument against home-schooling is that parents are in general not fit or qualified to give a well-rounded and objective education to their children, and also that the lack of social interaction means that the children often lack social skills. Basically, home-schooling is on average bad for a child's development and well-being.

If you don't understand those rather obvious things then I feel sorry for your children.

aladin 19.09.2019 09:47

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...[not really, it depends on Canton]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 3101687)
The argument against home-schooling is that parents are in general not fit or qualified to give a well-rounded and objective education to their children, and also that the lack of social interaction means that the children often lack social skills. Basically, home-schooling is on average bad for a child's development and well-being.

If you don't understand those rather obvious things then I feel sorry for your children.


I recommend you to search a bit before determining such assumptions.


For example (source Wikipedia):


In 2003, the National Home Education Research Institute conducted a survey of 7,300 U.S. adults who had been homeschooled (5,000 for more than seven years). Their findings included:
  • Homeschool graduates are active and involved in their communities. 71% participate in an ongoing community service activity, like coaching a sports team, volunteering at a school, or working with a church or neighborhood association, compared with 37% of U.S. adults of similar ages from a traditional education background.
  • Homeschool graduates are more involved in civic affairs and vote in much higher percentages than their peers. 76% of those surveyed between the ages of 18 and 24 voted within the last five years, compared with only 29% of the corresponding U.S. populace. The numbers are even greater in older age groups, with voting levels not falling below 95%, compared with a high of 53% for the corresponding U.S. populace.
  • 58.9% report that they are "very happy" with life, compared with 27.6% for the general U.S. population. 73.2% find life "exciting", compared with 47.3%.



You may leave your children with the system which was designed during the industrial revolution, so factory workers are able to work while putting their children in such institutes.


Dont feel sorry for mine... so far, they are doing great in every domain! :msncool:

Guest 19.09.2019 09:51

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aladin (Post 3101674)
How about: The children are not the parents' property, they are the state property..
We have to shape them in a certain form so they will perfectly fit to our society, each child at his own pre-determined location, without interference of any external force.
Homeschooling and other education forms might be non conforming frameworks, and therefore might be a threat to the conventional system.

Its obvious from the link I posted that its not completely banned in CH. I just wanted to indicate about the direction in CH regard alternative education system such as homeschooling.

I simply wonder why other (western, progressed, developed) countries allow this and some cantons in CH not?

How about simple "parenting"? Parents do the parenting and shape their kids into decent members of society through love, discipline, leading by example, and educating them in soft- and life-skills.

School is there for an education in subjects which are taught by specialised people who are qualified to impart this knowledge to kids.

Yes, there will be some cross-over in that teachers also try to make kids fit into society, learn how to become independent and earn a decent wage, as much as parents will dip into teaching their kids shades of maths, history, art, etc., through doing activities together.

Kids also need to be exposed to other kids, too, in order to learn how to behave when they are adults.

Why would anyone want to take the huge risk of trying to educate their own kids sufficiently to prepare them for the world of work when there is a perfectly good system run by qualified and experienced people for free?

I certainly wouldn't want to take that risk. My maths is nowhere near good enough to teach a teenager and, although my German is good, my grammar is distinctly "foreigner-German".

Having said that, I can murder the English homework and textbooks with a single, withering stare... :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by aladin (Post 3101699)

In 2003, the National Home Education Research Institute conducted a survey of 7,300 U.S. adults who had been homeschooled (5,000 for more than seven years). Their findings included:

What's the US got to do with it? :confused:

Urs Max 19.09.2019 09:54

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1234 (Post 3101346)
I'd say there a bit of hypocrisy here with regard to that. It wold appear children don't have their own rights as far as religion is concerned.

Why does religion have greater gravitas than education?

They don't get to chose the subjects they're taught either, does that make schooling a bad thing?

Given their importance it seems only reasonable to educate about religions in a comparative way especially if, as appears to be the practice, it's done in conjunction with ethics. Education in general and teaching about religions are far from mutually exclusive.

Besides, religion =/= belief

Guest 19.09.2019 09:55

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...[not really, it depends on Canton]
 
Qualified, experienced teacher here: homeschooling is nowhere near as bad as the stereotypes make it out to be.

Sure, some homeschoolers do a terrible job - but some teachers are useless, too. On the other hand, just as there are excellent teachers out there, there are some outstanding homeschoolers.

One size, as always, never fits all.

It would be nice to see some actual evidence in this thread instead of empty-headed yawping from the usual ill-informed suspects, but I shan't hold my breath.

Chuff 19.09.2019 10:04

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...[not really, it depends on Canton]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aladin (Post 3101699)
I recommend you to search a bit before determining such assumptions.


For example (source Wikipedia):


In 2003, the National Home Education Research Institute conducted a survey of 7,300 U.S. adults who had been homeschooled (5,000 for more than seven years). Their findings included:
  • Homeschool graduates are active and involved in their communities. 71% participate in an ongoing community service activity, like coaching a sports team, volunteering at a school, or working with a church or neighborhood association, compared with 37% of U.S. adults of similar ages from a traditional education background.
  • Homeschool graduates are more involved in civic affairs and vote in much higher percentages than their peers. 76% of those surveyed between the ages of 18 and 24 voted within the last five years, compared with only 29% of the corresponding U.S. populace. The numbers are even greater in older age groups, with voting levels not falling below 95%, compared with a high of 53% for the corresponding U.S. populace.
  • 58.9% report that they are "very happy" with life, compared with 27.6% for the general U.S. population. 73.2% find life "exciting", compared with 47.3%.

You may leave your children with the system which was designed during the industrial revolution, so factory workers are able to work while putting their children in such institutes.

A survey of a mere 5000 adults almost 20 years ago? Right, conclusive evidence I'm sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aladin (Post 3101699)
Dont feel sorry for mine... so far, they are doing great in every domain! :msncool:

In your objective and unbiased view... of course. As I said, if you are homeschooling your children then I genuinely feel sorry for them and the essential social interactions they are missing out on every day. You are actively and willingly stunting their development and causing a confusing aspect of your parent/offspring relationship to florush. No kid wants their parent as their teacher and to be with them literally all day every day. It is (in my opinion) completely selfish on your part and you are replacing a world-class education system with trained and professional teachers with your own biased selections and viewpoints. Bad parenting at its finest, in my view.

baboon 19.09.2019 10:15

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...[not really, it depends on Canton]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 3101713)
A survey of a mere 5000 adults almost 20 years ago? Right, conclusive evidence I'm sure.

Not only that, the survey came from "National Home Education Research Institute", a pro-Homeschooling organisation and therefore not exactly neutral.

Caleb 19.09.2019 10:27

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...[not really, it depends on Canton]
 
Can we please leave religion out of this discussion? This could be a good argument for and against home schooling. But the moment we toss religion into the argument it'll all go down in flames.

I suggest we focus exclusively on the "hard" schooling subjects in Switzerland (for practical reasons, let's use the example of a German-speaking canton, and primary school only). Primary school focuses mostly on German and Math, and to a slighly lesser extent M&U (Menschen und Umwelt = roughly Bio Sciences), R&Z (Raum und Zeit = roughly Social Sciences) and French (don't groan, Tom...Italian is elective only later on). This is what my kids had in Kanton St. Gallen. Is that similar across other cantons as well?

One of the benefits of the Volkschule is that the program is designed to allow children to progress and flow into the Secondary School, which means a homeschooling parent will have to provide a matching curriculum, unless they can commit to full Secondary School Homeschooling as well. Then they'd have to split Menschen und Umwelt into Biology, Chemistry and Physics, and split Raum und Zeiten into Geography and History. And then add French and English. And Sport. And Bildnerische Gestalten (roughly "Art"), and Kochen/Hauswirtschaft (i.e. Cooking and "home-smarts").

What parent can guarantee that they can deliver good-quality education (as measured by today's professionals, who were not trained during the industrial revolution, but rather very recently) in all of these subjects? Should the government design and implement a mechanism to test and certify hundreds of thousands of unprepared parents?

Guest 19.09.2019 10:31

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...[not really, it depends on Canton]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 3101713)
A survey of a mere 5000 adults almost 20 years ago? Right, conclusive evidence I'm sure.



In your objective and unbiased view... of course. As I said, if you are homeschooling your children then I genuinely feel sorry for them and the essential social interactions they are missing out on every day. You are actively and willingly stunting their development and causing a confusing aspect of your parent/offspring relationship to florush. No kid wants their parent as their teacher and to be with them literally all day every day. It is completely selfish on your part and you are replacing a world-class education system with trained and professional teachers with your own biased selections and viewpoints. Bad parenting at its finest, in my eyes.

10/20 years ago and this would have been, by and large, true.

Today homeschooling has become an industry of sorts. The more I hear about it, the more impressed I am. Social inclusion is a huge part of it with groups of kids taught and the teaching shared between parents depending on specialisms/training of parents. Science lab days are booked-in, as are history, cultural, geography field trips. Professionals are brought in to instruct kids in real life settings. UK kids are often homeschooled until exam years and enroll GCSE Year 11 or go straight to 6th Form.

Home schooling clubs are incredibly well-organised and work out very much like a small class setting which enables parents to have a bespoke education teaching to their child's strengths and confidence.

No doubt there are still parents who are bonkers and have ulterior motives for keeping kids isolated at home to their detriment and ruin.

Guest 19.09.2019 10:50

Re: Homeschooling is banned in CH...[not really, it depends on Canton]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Swisstree (Post 3101733)

Today homeschooling has become an industry of sorts. The more I hear about it, the more impressed I am. Social inclusion is a huge part of it with groups of kids taught and the teaching shared between parents depending on specialisms/training of parents. Science lab days are booked-in, as are history, cultural, geography field trips. Professionals are brought in to instruct kids in real life settings. UK kids are often homeschooled until exam years and enroll GCSE Year 11 or go straight to 6th Form.

Home schooling clubs are incredibly well-organised and work out very much like a small class setting which enables parents to have a bespoke education teaching to their child's strengths and confidence.

I guess it's not set up here in CH to that degree yet, though, which is why it's probably so restricted (yes, I can see the vicious circle of "there's no infrastructure in place because there is not much uptake for homeschooling, therefore due to low numbers we don't need to implement an infrastructure...").

Also, I'm not sure how popular it is with the Swiss population anyway so maybe that's also why it's not so advanced as it is in the UK, as well as I can imagine the authorities here taking a dim view if kids are home-schooled in a variety of non-Swiss languages, even if the longer term plan is to stick around.

Just trying to see it from a Swiss perspective.


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