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  #41  
Old 26.10.2020, 19:29
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

Very interesting dicussion, thank you.


As a young mum who went back to full time education then full time work. Away from family, in the UK- there was not one day that I didn't thank my Swiss mother, born in 1915- for the fact she always worked. We used to cook our own lunch - and were latch key children- which made us independent, strong and creative.
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  #42  
Old 26.10.2020, 19:36
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

@chrisawina what actually is your point here? You're arguing about opportunity, and income, and being poor in old age, but there's no logical consistency.

For one thing, in your examples you always subtract the childcare costs only from the woman's income; actually, if you take it in proportion off both incomes the argument becomes different - simply that kids cost money, but you can still have a career.

Of course if you can't afford it overall, then it's a problem. As are so many other things in life, that's not really a male/female argument.
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  #43  
Old 26.10.2020, 22:16
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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I remember meeting a friend for coffee once. She paid for her latte and showed me the bill: "I just spent everything I made today." She had two kids in daycare. She stopped working soon after because the stress of the commute, the massive administrative load of managing her kids' schedules with her husband's needs, household chores and her job, was just not worth it for the reward of a latte a day.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but there are many reasons for your friend to stop working, and to me it sounds like money is the least important one.

My observation: I work in a financial services company where most women, when they start having kids, earn at least 100k per year. Childcare for 2 kids is about 50k per year. Most of them come back after their maternity leave (though some take up to 6 months off). But... , it would be highly unusual for the Swiss to come back, but highly unusual for the expats NOT to come back. Why? It is certainly not because of the money.
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  #44  
Old 27.10.2020, 00:26
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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The issue with making childcare cheaper is that taxes will go up. That is just they way it goes as someone needs to pay for it..
Pretty hard to convince someone that they should have less income so that someone else can have more.... especially if the extra income is spent on holidays, better opportunity for kids education etc...

Reminds me of people during the last recession in Ireland arguing that they should not loose their homes because they could not afford to pay for them, with the taxpayers footing the bill. Problem was, these people often had better houses than the taxpayers that were expected to foot the bill.

Just not going to happen...
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  #45  
Old 12.11.2020, 18:28
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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Agreed. I am 70 this year, so a different generation to most of you. and I was very lucky to be raised in the 50s, by a mother who worked, and always earned more than my dad, and had a car before he did. A woman before her time.


So I am surprised to find that still so many couples still think in a very traditional way, to this day- and do not challenge those ideas. As said, issues are all intertwined and complicated. But childcare will follow the way couples think and interact - even if it takes a while. If the accepted version prevails, at home, that as the mother earns less, she will be the one to stay at home- or in many case, when career and earnings are similar too- then the 'system' will follow suit. Same in politics- which influence the above. If young women do not come forwards for election and get onto Councils to put pressure on the need for more chilcare places, and more affordable - then things won't change.
Thank you for sharing that! It is very important that people from the older generation share such experiences, because many have the wrong impression about what is "traditional way".
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  #46  
Old 12.11.2020, 21:02
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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It is mostly women who stay at home to look after the children. Where do you get your understanding to be the reason is about their current salary ? For those fortunate enough to be have the choice of continuing to work + daycare vs staying at home and looking after their new children, the decision i have seen commonly is that having one parent looking after the children full time was a choice that was wanted (regardless of male vs female).
I don't have kids yet, mostly because I went back to study and full time work + full time study is enough.

But with my boyfriend we decided the moment we are gonna have kids, he will work 50% (or 100% but from home if allowed), since he earn less and between the two, he's the one with patience.

We thought about daycare all week, but it looked way too expensive

I wish daycare would be less expensive.
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  #47  
Old 13.11.2020, 11:12
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

Even if the cost of childcare sucks up the majority of one paycheck, there are lasting economical effects on leaving the workforce that have to be considered. Keeping your foot in the door even in the early days is well worth it, even if it feels like a financial sacrifice. Unless being a stay-at-home parent is what will bring you the most joy, think carefully before making the decision purely on the immediate math equation.
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  #48  
Old 17.11.2020, 00:57
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

Was this 5k per one child? Sorry for direct question.. But just figure out taht if I will move to Switzerland next year my 3 children will be not ready for the school. Looks like one will start kindergarden in Aug. But for the. 2 younger i Need to find nursery... I would prefer bilingual one, but looking at the cost! Im not sure if it's worth to move right now...
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Yeah. This is a topic for us. About to pay 5k a month for daycare when the next kid is old enough. Having experienced looking after kids while working due to corona virus, I'd say it is money well spent as I do not have enough energy to do that day in day out for 7 days a week while taking pay cut to do so.

While it is a lot of money there are other considerations:

1. Daycare isn't forever, after they go to school you can cut back, whereas a loss of career could be more permanent
2. Decided against 80% work as in my role I'd just get paid less and have to do the same work in fewer days
3. While I like my kids- holidays, weekends and evenings are enough for me!

That said, I'm going to trial a 4 day week for a few months to see how that works.

For me, being at work is probably the most productive thing I can do while kids are too young for school. Maybe once they are at school, I would be able to use the time more productively to do other things. If I stayed home with them, I'd just lose my mind chasing after them and couldn't really do anything else.
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  #49  
Old 17.11.2020, 01:25
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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Was this 5k per one child? Sorry for direct question.. But just figure out taht if I will move to Switzerland next year my 3 children will be not ready for the school. Looks like one will start kindergarden in Aug. But for the. 2 younger i Need to find nursery... I would prefer bilingual one, but looking at the cost! Im not sure if it's worth to move right now...
5k is for 2 kids.
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  #50  
Old 17.11.2020, 10:13
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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Was this 5k per one child? Sorry for direct question.. But just figure out taht if I will move to Switzerland next year my 3 children will be not ready for the school. Looks like one will start kindergarden in Aug. But for the. 2 younger i Need to find nursery... I would prefer bilingual one, but looking at the cost! Im not sure if it's worth to move right now...

It will range from about Fr.1500 to Fr.2500 per child, depending on how many hours and their age. Babies are a bit more expensive as they need more carers, etc., and whether you want 1/2 days or full days including extra care before 8am and after 5pm.

If you are flexible (are you both working?) and you can find a place for them, you could also do only a few days a week. This is what we did, my wife wasn't working but we did 2-3 days a week so that she can have a break and do all the other stuff that she needs to do and the kids get to socialize. But this would depend on whether the nursery has slots available on those days as they of course prefer kids who come fulltime.
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  #51  
Old 17.11.2020, 15:54
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

I am a single parent and child care is so expensive and hard to find that my kids spend a lot of time alone.
It's not what I want or what they want, but we have no other choice.
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  #52  
Old 18.11.2020, 11:35
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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I am a single parent and child care is so expensive and hard to find that my kids spend a lot of time alone.
It's not what I want or what they want, but we have no other choice.
There seem to be play groups around and also near us is a free 'freizeithaus' where many kids play. Maybe there'll be something similar near you.

Also, there should be some financial support for low income households.

Last edited by Phil_MCR; 18.11.2020 at 12:46.
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  #53  
Old 18.11.2020, 12:43
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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I am a single parent and child care is so expensive and hard to find that my kids spend a lot of time alone.
It's not what I want or what they want, but we have no other choice.
Hello fellow single parent and hugs! Yes, we have a plagroup organized by the municipality 3x a week, for 4mo old till 4yr. It's Mommy&Me, we loved it. For older - get creative, outsource groups (scouts, cadets, sports...). Or organize one through here? I'd just wait now because of the Covid threat but you could organize it here through the events calendar <3
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  #54  
Old 18.11.2020, 13:01
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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he will work 50% (or 100% but from home if allowed)
If he has a flexible schedule (e.g., 4 hours in the morning, 4 hours late in the evening), this could work. Otherwise I find hard to envision how one can do it.
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  #55  
Old 18.11.2020, 13:35
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

We have friends in Paris who just could not find suitable childcare- so they got motivated in the community, had meetings, worked out individual strengths, qualifications, timetables, needs, etc, etc and got support from their local authorities with finding suitable premises, etc. They got the whole thing going within a couple of months.


Hard work, complicated, but it can be done. They all worked at the nursery in turn, some who had less time paid fees, and the children got an amazing mix of skills taught too. Would be very difficult to new expats to do- but they could jump in. No reasons it could not be done here.
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Old 20.11.2020, 15:01
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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There seem to be play groups around and also near us is a free 'freizeithaus' where many kids play. Maybe there'll be something similar near you.

Also, there should be some financial support for low income households.
We are lucky to be surrounded by good neighbours, and there are things in the next town, that do offer sliding scale support. The problem is they would have to take the bus and we have max one bus per hour. During holidays even less. Plus I don't quite trust them alone on the bus yet.
I was quite fortunate that we didn't live here until they were past the needing constant care age. I don't know what I would have done. Now I can leave them something in the microwave to warm up and I at least know they've eaten. The rest I manage by WhatsApp and schedules/to do lists.
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Old 20.11.2020, 21:00
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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If he has a flexible schedule (e.g., 4 hours in the morning, 4 hours late in the evening), this could work. Otherwise I find hard to envision how one can do it.
Well another idea is that he'd move back to his country with the kid(s) and live/work there during the kid(s)' kindergarten years while I skype daily and visit during the week ends/vacations.
This would actually save us lots of money.
But we of course prefer the solution where he works 50% or 100% from home.
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  #58  
Old 22.11.2020, 14:56
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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Well another idea is that he'd move back to his country with the kid(s) and live/work there during the kid(s)' kindergarten years while I skype daily and visit during the week ends/vacations.
This would actually save us lots of money.
But we of course prefer the solution where he works 50% or 100% from home.
Sorry but you want to have kids and the be separated from them for years? I don't get it, if not ready financially then better wait.

Working from home is not a substitute for child care. There is NO WAY you can put in 8 hours of work whilst looking after a baby or even worse a toddler and baby. It is perhaps doable if you can do 2 hours 6-8 am, then 2 hrs 12-14 and the rest 18-22 when the partner takes over, but what a life.

I would honestly aim for a different solution....
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Old 22.11.2020, 21:17
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

There are so many thoughts related to this post, I dont know where to start
Why do people always assume that women are always the one making less? that it feels more natural for women to stay home? that the cost of daycare needs to be calculated from the woman salary (e.g. if I have 2 children, it's not worth to work)?

I actually think childcare is cheap. After spending half a year dealing with my little one and doing the adaptation period in the Kita, the ladies and men working there have my full respect and deserve to have better salaries! it's the toughest job I could think of.

Now, back to the math. Daycare is around 2.5-3K per month w/out subsidy. Assuming this is split equally between 2 working parents, it's max 1.5K per month per baby. Let's say you happen to have 2 babies in daycare at the same time, it's max 3K per month per parent. I dont know anyone in Switzerland who works 100% and makes less 3K per month.

From a financial point of view, it ALWAYS makes sense that both parents work. If a mum (or dad) decides to stay home, there are other factors such as preferences on how to raise a family, lack of spots at childcare, etc...but we should stop complaining that "daycare is expensive". Yes, it's free in France. What are the taxes in France again? Nothing is free.

As a side note, someone said the best option is to work from home + child at home + some type of help. I think about my baby and how demanding she is and wonder how can anyone work with a child at home...did I get the wrong baby?
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Old 22.11.2020, 21:24
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Re: Paying in daycare vs. staying at home

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There are so many thoughts related to this post, I dont know where to start
Why do people always assume that women are always the one making less?
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/persist...rland/45855226

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that it feels more natural for women to stay home?
https://www.ch.ch/en/paternity-leave/

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that the cost of daycare needs to be calculated from the woman salary (e.g. if I have 2 children, it's not worth to work)?
Agree

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I actually think childcare is cheap. After spending half a year dealing with my little one and doing the adaptation period in the Kita, the ladies and men working there have my full respect and deserve to have better salaries! it's the toughest job I could think of.
On the one hand, CHEAP????

On the other, fully agree, you couldn't pay me enough to make me do it.


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Now, back to the math. Daycare is around 2.5-3K per month w/out subsidy. Assuming this is split equally between 2 working parents, it's max 1.5K per month per baby. Let's say you happen to have 2 babies in daycare at the same time, it's max 3K per month per parent. I dont know anyone in Switzerland who works 100% and makes less 3K per month.
Well yes, but how many have 6k net left to spend comfortably on childcare?

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From a financial point of view, it ALWAYS makes sense that both parents work. If a mum (or dad) decides to stay home, there are other factors such as preferences on how to raise a family, lack of spots at childcare, etc...but we should stop complaining that "daycare is expensive". Yes, it's free in France. What are the taxes in France again? Nothing is free.
Obviously it doesn't - simply maths says that if one parent earns less that 6k per month it would be cheaper for them to stay at home and not pay childcare.

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As a side note, someone said the best option is to work from home + child at home + some type of help. I think about my baby and how demanding she is and wonder how can anyone work with a child at home...did I get the wrong baby?
Same here.
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