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  #41  
Old 04.05.2021, 14:05
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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Telling your kids it's not ok to flunk exams and become a hairdresser shows them the greatest amount of love, in my view.
You don't think very highly of hairdressers then? It's a three-year (sometimes four, depending on what you are going for) full-time apprenticeship in this country. One thing that always baffles me about going to the hairdresser in the UK is that you need a patch test 48 hours in advance (or have provided one to the same salon in the past six months) for any colour treatment, even if it's just a toner of the kind you could also buy in any shop.

This is completely unheard of here and yet I don't know of anyone* who has had a bad reaction to hair dye in a salon. I've heard of perms gone wrong at bargain basement type salons here in Switzerland, but not the horrific allergic reactions that I saw when I actually googled why the UK has this stupid rule. I actually did a two week Schnupperlehre as a hairdresser and witnessed them telling people that a certain treatment was not possible because of the current state of their hair or because their scalp looked irritated. So it may just be that having properly educated beauty professionals prevents you from damaging your health?

I'm not saying UK hairdressers are not properly educated, there are some fantastic ones, just that the level of formal training before they start to work on their own is higher here. Obviously, on the job experience and continuous further education will ultimately be key to being at the top of your game in the business, but a solid foundation is important if you are going to be putting chemicals on people's head.

*Disclaimer: And wasn't already aware of having some level of allergy or sensitivity to the products typically used or to beauty products in general. If you are someone who tends to react to products, it would be advisable for you to check with the hairdresser and they will probably suggest doing a patch test in your particular situation.
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  #42  
Old 04.05.2021, 23:26
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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I think this is the question. What if a kid’s dream is to become a - lawyer, architect, biologist- and at the age of 12 you are told you cannot because you lack 0.01 marks on your weighted average since you got a lower mark in music or sport? I know about passerelle, etc however my experience is that the system is very fluid downwards and it is very difficult to move upwards. Among the reasons is the social stigma that does come from the friends circle and not necessary from the parents only.
Age 12? Which canton are you in and how does the system work there? In Zürich, which probably has the biggest hype and controversy about Gymis, there is no way anyone will be „told (they) cannot“ at twelve. The Langgymi is not a prerequisite for anything. Plus the admission test at age twelve is maths and German only, and nobody can forbid you to take it. Sport never counts for promotion. Music does, but not for the Gymiprüfung. Most kids we know who really wanted to go to university and failed Langgymi managed to get a place in a Kurzgymi later on, which makes their Matura equally valid without any need for a Passerelle. Several boys preferred to attend a Sek and not even try for Langgymi, which makes perfect sense if STEM is their forte. On our side of town, peer pressure for boys is rather anti-intellectual than the opposite. And may I be quite frank? An architect, lawyer or biologist needs to have a certain ability for abstract thinking. If they don‘t have it, I venture to suggest that such ideas are doomed to remain fantasies and the sooner a child faces that, the better. (Of course there are always bright students going through difficult patches. But one can compensate for a lot later on, and if teachers know, they are usually supportive. Also, getting a Matura a year later is not all bad.)

By „what makes her happy“, I did not mean a career choice, for goodness‘ sake. Much too early. I just wish she would learn one thing in life earlier than I did. Campbell called it „follow your bliss“, Erica Jong said „trust all joy“. Finding out what gives you joy and purpose in the moment is the sort of stuff that prevents midlife crises. Experimenting means with different sports including teams, music including ensembles, and so on. Within a certain bandwidth, there are oodles of possibilities. So far, the kid has no idea what she wants to do, but she is quite clear that it has to permit part-time work. (Having misspent my youth in hospitals before limits on working hours for residents were introduced, I couldn‘t agree more! We do not know what we want until after we get it. Marshall Rosenberg.)

Anyway, good luck to your offspring, or to whoever you wrote that for/about.

Last edited by missenglish; 04.05.2021 at 23:47.
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  #43  
Old 05.05.2021, 08:17
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

In basel the access to gymi is based on the marks of the 6th grade including sport, music and art (although at a lower weight). If you don’t make to the higher stream at Sek then it is very difficult to move up (statistics say so). As the numbers of students attending gymi is still too high for the politicians they establish year by year rules to reduce the number: at the beginning only the final grades were valid, now the grades must be sufficient in the first and second. The infilormation is available https://www.edubs.ch/publikationen/z...20%20V1_kl.pdf
Including the details about accesses to Gymnasium by nationality and mother tongue.
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  #44  
Old 05.05.2021, 08:38
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

In Vaud you need to pass each year so 1st, 2nd and 3rd although its not all an exam at the end of the year, its a points system that you pickup with tests as you move forward.

Kids can re-take each year if they fail to get enough points, but they can only do so once, in theory you could spend 6 years in gymnasium.

My daughter's at gymnasium now and she tells me a sizeable number of students are failing, planning to try to retake said year. Her class also seem to have quite a few students who were re-taking the year too, so if they failed a second time than they need to find a new direction I guess [private gymnasium].
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  #45  
Old 05.05.2021, 09:28
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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In Vaud you need to pass each year so 1st, 2nd and 3rd although its not all an exam at the end of the year, its a points system that you pickup with tests as you move forward.

Kids can re-take each year if they fail to get enough points, but they can only do so once, in theory you could spend 6 years in gymnasium.

My daughter's at gymnasium now and she tells me a sizeable number of students are failing, planning to try to retake said year. Her class also seem to have quite a few students who were re-taking the year too, so if they failed a second time than they need to find a new direction I guess [private gymnasium].
Same here. The level is reviewed at every semester with the result tha Sek classes (and friends) change continuously. More than in private schools. The difference is that the possibility to repeat one year is no longer possible so once you are out you are out.
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  #46  
Old 05.05.2021, 13:05
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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In Vaud you need to pass each year so 1st, 2nd and 3rd although its not all an exam at the end of the year, its a points system that you pickup with tests as you move forward.

Kids can re-take each year if they fail to get enough points, but they can only do so once, in theory you could spend 6 years in gymnasium.

My daughter's at gymnasium now and she tells me a sizeable number of students are failing, planning to try to retake said year. Her class also seem to have quite a few students who were re-taking the year too, so if they failed a second time than they need to find a new direction I guess [private gymnasium].
I retook the first year of Gymi (the shorter version that starts after two or three years of secondary school) and ultimately got kicked out, which is why I did my A levels in the UK. The Swiss system really requires you to be a generalist, despite the opportunity to place a stronger focus on the things you are good at. If you are catastrophically bad at maths, you can just about scrape by if your average grade is sufficient, but you usually get into trouble when they add physics to the mix. And when I say "catastrophically bad at maths", I mean scoring a two on a regular basis. Imagine my surprise when I took my GCSE (they required it for me to be allowed to do my A-levels) Maths and ended up with a B. Not a great score but also not the fail I expected.

Retaking a class should not be seen as the terrible failure some people think it is. For example, if your child was born towards the end of the period that qualifies to attend a certain school year, they are almost a year older than the kids born right at the beginning. Now this may seem irrelevant, but if you look at it from a developmental perspective, being 84 months old is different from 73 months. Or 85 months compared to 96, I'm not sure what the exact ages are for starting school.

Some kids take longer and there are cognitive as well as physical and social skills to develop. For example, a study in Canada found that 36% of players drafted by NHL teams were born in the first quarter of the calendar year, while only 14% were born in the last quarter. If you consider that hockey hopefulls start their journey as kids in a sport where being bigger and stronger is conducive to success, then it makes sense that the older and therefore already more developed kids embark on a more favourable path from the very start.

This is also why I think the "three possible entry points" system to Gymnasium makes sense. Some kids are already rearing to go at age 12, others may be ready at 14 or only at 15. And even if you figure it all out later, the door is still not closed, it just takes a lot more effort to do it. I have a friend who had done an informatics apprenticeship and realised at age 30 that what he really wanted to do was study physics. He hadn't done the "Berufsmatur" back in the day, so he had to do the adult gymnasium while holding down a job. He sold his car, moved into a shared flat and cut his hours down to 60%. He succeeded and later went on to study physics at the University of Zurich.

There are certain things where there comes a point for it being too late to do it, I've seen some Masters courses only being open to those under a certain age and, outside of academia, you can only join the police force if you are under 35. But other than that - if you only figure out what you want in life later on, you can change your path. You may have to sacrifice more and not receive much support from those around you, but it can be done. I went from working in an accounting megacorp as one of those people who ensure everyone in that company is crossing the Ts and dotting the Is to a tiny but mighty social media and content marketing agency in the year of my 40th birthday. A shock to the system but a great choice to make.

So to whoever said they are worried about their daughter not getting into Gymi at age 12 would make the foundations of their architecture dreams collapse - it won't. Heck, you may not even need to go to gymi at all. There is the option of doing a structural draftswoman apprenticeship (Zeichnerin EFZ, Architektur / Dessinatrice CFC, architecture), doing the vocational diploma, and then getting doing your BSc and MSc in Architecture at a university of applied sciences. She may discover during her apprenticeship that she actually enjoys the project management side of building and do further training to become a construction manager instead.

The important thing for all parents with connections to a foreign country is to remember that we do things differently here and the expectations of your relatives are not what will make your children happy. If they kick off, you can kindly tell them that it is best not to provide opinions on things that one does not fully understand. To quote my grandad: Fools and bairns should never see half-done work ("fools and children should never see a job half done" for those not familiar with Geordie/Mackem/Pit Yakker English). Most parents will tell you that raising their kids to become self-sufficient adults is one of the hardest jobs they've ever done, so don't let Auntie Karen project her insecurities and vicarious status hunting on to you.

Last edited by Kittster; 05.05.2021 at 15:09. Reason: Typo
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  #47  
Old 05.05.2021, 14:45
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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I retook the first year of Gymi (the shorter version that starts after two or three years of secondary school) and ultimately got kicked out, which is why I did my A levels in the UK. The Swiss system really requires you to be a generalist, despite the opportunity to place a stronger focus on the things you are good at. If you are catastrophically bad at maths, you can just about scrape by if your average grade is sufficient, but you usually get into trouble when they add physics to the mix. And when I say "catastrophically bad at maths", I mean scoring a two on a regular basis. Imagine my surprise when I took my GCSE (they required it for me to be allowed to do my A-levels) Maths and ended up with a B. Not a great score but also not the fail I expected.
.
Indeed. Music and/or Drawing still part of the curriculum, a number of foreign languages lessons per week and that even for the Natural Sciences profile for instance.

These kids have a fantastic opportunity. I like this system. They have all the time ahead after Matura to specialise in something.
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Old 05.05.2021, 14:52
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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Indeed. Music and/or Drawing still part of the curriculum, a number of foreign languages lessons per week and that even for the Natural Sciences profile for instance.

These kids have a fantastic opportunity. I like this system. They have all the time ahead after Matura to specialise in something.
It's definitely an amazing thing to have access to and I am glad that I did, but it was not for me, my skills are very one-sided and I didn't know that I had ADHD at the time. If your kid is almost savant level smart in one particular area to the detriment of another, it might not work, the British system is much better for that. Even a private gymnasium here in Switzerland will not allow you to opt out of something completely, the expectation is for you to have a well-rounded education.
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  #49  
Old 05.05.2021, 15:04
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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PRIVATE is good.

(...)

If your kids are not academics, if they get stressed out by the constant testing regime. If they feel intimidated by the brighter kids. If they growing up more slowly and prefer video games to education and getting pushed into the lower streams, then the private system may work better for you.

OVERALL.
Well if thats the case, why push the kids into academia at all?
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Old 05.05.2021, 21:36
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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Indeed. Music and/or Drawing still part of the curriculum, a number of foreign languages lessons per week and that even for the Natural Sciences profile for instance.

These kids have a fantastic opportunity. I like this system. They have all the time ahead after Matura to specialise in something.
Agree, I was a dunce in maths (still am), but had to do it at A’Level as it was required in order to do my physics (there I apparently got the top UK grade that year). So I did Art as my 5th. My parents had nothing at all to do with my decisions.

Here, my daughter did English in the Gymi as one of her chosen subjects . Anyway didn‘t stop her from getting honours in both her bachelors and masters.

I believe that it‘s important to inform yourself as a parent about ALL options and possibilities, and to be able to support your child in finding their own way through their own choices. It shouldn‘t be a drama for the child (although it might be a drama for the parent attempting to make sure they have all the right information here in Switzerland). That I found really hard.
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Old 05.05.2021, 22:41
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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In basel the access to gymi is based on the marks of the 6th grade including sport, music and art (although at a lower weight). If you don’t make to the higher stream at Sek then it is very difficult to move up (statistics say so). As the numbers of students attending gymi is still too high for the politicians they establish year by year rules to reduce the number: at the beginning only the final grades were valid, now the grades must be sufficient in the first and second. The infilormation is available https://www.edubs.ch/publikationen/z...20%20V1_kl.pdf
Including the details about accesses to Gymnasium by nationality and mother tongue.
Sport. Phew. I feel for you.

It is true that in Switzerland, the educational background of their parents influences children‘s chance of getting a good education, more so than in other countries. OTOH we know an African refugee who passed the Gymiprüfung, and one from Pakistan who came here as an unaccompanied minor and is just finishing up his Berufsmatur. I have always wondered whether it is quite fair to compare the chances of students in the very diverse country ours has become with, say, Poland or Finland, where the student body is far more homogenous in terms both of culture and of language.

As for the number of students being kept low for political reasons: Every Zürcher SP member I know says so but the numbers have yet to convince me. https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfsstatic/d...4715808/master TD2 lists the Maturitätsquote by canton for every year since 1980. The numbers are rising. In BS, they did so quite steeply until recently, when they reached a plateau at a little less than 50%. Zurich‘s are lower.

At such levels, raising them any further would soon mean a system change. Obviously, such systems - where everybody leaves high school and most go on to college - do exist. While I appreciate the dilemma of expats whose children might relocate to a home country with that kind of education, aren‘t there other solutions?

In „Distinctions“, Bourdieu reports the value of education for social status but goes on to say that when everybody has it, it loses its value as a prerequisite for the distinction he‘s writing about. Many of the highly educated members of his generation who‘d been upwardly mobile, e.g. the first in their family to get a degree, ended up feeling cheated. Once it is normalised, education no longer opens all the doors it used to. Does it make sense to prolong adolescence so much for most of our young people, in pursuit of something so elusive? I don‘t have any answers but I find the questions interesting. And the discussion. Thank you all.

PS Cinzia, I‘m confused: your link says 6y primary and 3y Sek, so why age 12?

Last edited by missenglish; 05.05.2021 at 23:16.
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  #52  
Old 06.05.2021, 08:23
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

Here's a video comparing the Swiss system to aspects of the American and Canadian systems, which might be helpful to some.
https://youtu.be/2oPab6l8bdM
Schools in Switzerland vs. America - 20 Major Differences
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Old 06.05.2021, 09:36
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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Agree, I was a dunce in maths (still am), but had to do it at A’Level as it was required in order to do my physics (there I apparently got the top UK grade that year). So I did Art as my 5th. My parents had nothing at all to do with my decisions.

Here, my daughter did English in the Gymi as one of her chosen subjects . Anyway didn‘t stop her from getting honours in both her bachelors and masters.

I believe that it‘s important to inform yourself as a parent about ALL options and possibilities, and to be able to support your child in finding their own way through their own choices. It shouldn‘t be a drama for the child (although it might be a drama for the parent attempting to make sure they have all the right information here in Switzerland). That I found really hard.
@ZuriRollt,

Hats off to you for your daughter's achievements! Of course she has the main merits and my intention is not to deny that, but this is a system that sometimes requires full time commitment from parents too. Especially of those parents whose kids speak a different language at home.
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Old 06.05.2021, 14:34
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Re: Are private gymnasiums a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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@ZuriRollt,

Hats off to you for your daughter's achievements! Of course she has the main merits and my intention is not to deny that, but this is a system that sometimes requires full time commitment from parents too. Especially of those parents whose kids speak a different language at home.
Absolutely!
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Old 06.05.2021, 15:22
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Re: Are private gymnasiums [schools] a complete solution or just a small remedy?

The first streaming happens at grade 6th primary. It is based on the marks in all subjects to be confirmed in the first and second semester. Your level is then reconsidered at every semester of the Sek- Sek is 3 years.
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Old 06.05.2021, 15:36
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Re: Are private gymnasiums [schools] a complete solution or just a small remedy?

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The first streaming happens at grade 6th primary. It is based on the marks in all subjects to be confirmed in the first and second semester. Your level is then reconsidered at every semester of the Sek- Sek is 3 years.
In some parts of Switzerland, not everywhere.

We don't even have a 6th primary!

Tom
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