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Old 03.08.2021, 10:13
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Entering school system with a 15 year old English speaker

Hi,
I am hoping someone can clear up my confusion about the Swiss system for older kids.
I've gone through the threads on here and have sort of figured out the basics about the Swiss education system but can't quite figure out what will happen with my older son when we move.
We plan to move around March next year, my younger son will be 11 (turned 11 this July) and we guess he will go to local school and after whatever integration classes he has(they vary by area I assume ?) will be put back a year into either year 5 or 6.
Our 15 year old however we are not sure whether he will be able to join high school in year 9. He turns 16 end of January. He has said he would rather learn the local language and join the local school than go international. He is happy to be put back a year or two to have time to focus on German. He is clever and finds it easy to learn but has about zero concrete future plans. His focus is physics and maths which leads me to my concern. I am aware that he wouldn't be able to go to Gymnasium with his lack of Latin and German. Would he be even able to go to vocational school or apprentice (the bit I have found the most confusing) or would he be pushed into something that wouldn't challenge him outside of the obvious language acquisition? I couldn't figure out if he will need to go to a private high school to try to graduate with Swiss matura or if he is better to be pushed into international which he really doesn't want as we intend to stay long term and he wants to settle in and make friends locally. Is graduating with a Swiss matura the only way to get into higher study in math and physics etc
Sorry lots of questions but I can't quite figure out how it would work.

I am sure I've grasped the sysytem wrong 🙈 please feel free to correct my mistakes and assumptions.
Thanks
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Old 03.08.2021, 10:23
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

He is past the age of obligatory schooling, so local schools are out.

Without German (or other local language, if not in the German speaking bit), he will not be able to do an aprenticeship.

Tom
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Old 03.08.2021, 10:29
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

Hello and welcome to EF.
Your son needs a Swiss Matura or an International Baccalaureate to be able to attend university.
International school really is the better option at his age.
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Old 03.08.2021, 10:29
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

Moving a 15 year old to another school system will likely be detrimental. He's halfway through his GCSEs, yes? International schools will let him continue with them. To be brutally honest, moving him at this age is not a good idea at all. Your 11 year old will likely also struggle in the local system.
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Old 03.08.2021, 11:08
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

My friend moved here at age 12 due to family breakdown. She is very fluent in many languages now, but the first few years were brutal for her. Her teacher told her that the only thing she would ever amount to would be a kitchen cleaner Talk about crushing a young girl from a broken home!

She turned into an outstanding, successful lady, but could have done without the hardship.
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Old 03.08.2021, 13:21
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

If you are moving to Zurich Area consider Hulls School or Academia school - they do Alevels.
Imo it would be a huge mistake to put him in local system - he’s the wrong age, doesn’t have German and will be at a total disadvantage, even if they would take him. A further option might be enrolling in an online school as a form of homeschooling.
Ask questions about the requirements for Swiss University - if that what he wants in the end. It’s quite particular.
Good luck
From Mum of a 16 year old
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Old 03.08.2021, 15:58
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

Thanks for the answers, much appreciated.
I had suspected it would be difficult for him to integrate at his age but wanted to check the options.

Has anyone had experience of older children using international schools and still managing to settle in and acquire fluent German and a decent ability in the Swiss German? I think the major concern would be him making friends he can see regularly and being able to attend sports etc locally to us.
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Old 03.08.2021, 16:05
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

I dont think you can put him in the local school system tho and expect him to just soak up the language in a magic way different to the international system. He might say he would prefer the local school but his vision of his next two years show how unrealistic his dream is, which is completely expected seeing as he's a teenage foreign national. Tell him James Bond went to a swiss private school and thats the final word on any discussion.
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Old 03.08.2021, 18:49
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

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Tell him James Bond went to a swiss private school and thats the final word on any discussion.
The fact that Bond's mother was Swiss may have had something to do with that...


To the OP:
At 16, you are either done with school and starting your apprenticeship (which you have already more or less secured the year before) or you are in Gymnasium. Some people add a 10th year of normal secondary school because they need a bit more time and start their apprenticeship at 17, but it's a minority.

Honestly, I would not try to hit too many "nice to haves" before you have sorted all your "must haves". Being a teenager in Switzerland is very different from what I presume is the US. For starters, he will be able to walk into any shop and buy all the beer and wine that he wants from age 16 but he will not be allowed to drive until he is 18 .

As for needing Latin for Gymnasium, that's only for one particular kind of the short-term Gymnasium. He's too old for the long-term one. He would need German though, as that is a subject that is counted double for grading.

If you can afford it, stick him in an international school. There will be a few spoiled brats there for sure but in terms of letting him keep his confidence up and figuring out what to do, it's your best bet. Language acquisition becomes much harder with every year past 11 years of age, some even say 8 is the cut-off point. Trying to learn Swiss German may sound fun, but unless he already has a very solid grip of German, he'll get very frustrated. Even many Germans can't understand us. I can count on my two hands the number of foreigners that have picked up Swiss German to a standard that doesn't make me want to immediately switch to English or High German to help them. Speaking decent German is good enough to make friends worth your time and you will probably find that Swiss teenagers in urban areas are eager to speak English.

Since he will struggle to get an apprenticeship past the age of 18, he needs to have a serious think about what he wants: to go to university later on or to start on the job training within the next few years.

If the former: he will have to do an IB and that would have to happen at a private international school, unless he is incredibly smart and able to get to C2 level German in under 6 months. Someone mentioned going to Hull's: Simply doing A-Levels at Hull's won't be enough, as he needs a certain number of pass grade qualification in order to qualify for Swiss university. So he would need to do the GCSEs first, then the A-levels.

If the latter: Has he already started to learn German? It will be difficult for him to do an apprenticeship without it as all the teaching materials and the final exams are in German, so even if a company were to apprentice him, he would fail the school part without knowing German.

I did the opposite of what you are considering: finished my school education abroad after I got kicked out of Swiss gymnasium for not being able to maintain the grades required. So I went to the UK and got good enough A-level grades to be interviewed at Cambridge and offered a place at five out of my six university choices. Not Cambridge though, I'm neither smart nor ambitious enough for that but considering I was kicked out as a failure in my home country, I did ok. I'm merely saying this to illustrate the fact that Swiss gymnasium is really hard (well, I found it hard), even for those of us who went through the entire school system here in Switzerland. If you opt for a more science-focused stream, they still make you do two foreign languages (French or Italian if you go to the MNG Rämibühl) and we are not talking "useful on holiday" level either. You study a total of ten subjects during the four years that it takes to get a Matura and you can either flunk one badly or have three where you only just fall below a pass grade, as long as your grade averages are still sufficient. 67% is a pass grade, 97-100% is an A (for many teachers, only 100% is an A).

Anyway, there are loads of local clubs and associations that he could join once he has a reasonable command of German, I wouldn't try to put him through state Gymnasium for the sake of making local friends. And it's also important to remember that Swiss people tend to have a small number of good friends rather than a large collection of friends and acquaintances. So it may take some time and I think being in a club with a shared interest may be the better place for it.

TL: DR
I strongly advise against even attempting the short-term state Gymnasium without a very good foundation of the local language and you need to hurry up if an apprenticeship is a possible option.
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Old 03.08.2021, 19:04
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

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Thanks for the answers, much appreciated.
I had suspected it would be difficult for him to integrate at his age but wanted to check the options.

Has anyone had experience of older children using international schools and still managing to settle in and acquire fluent German and a decent ability in the Swiss German? I think the major concern would be him making friends he can see regularly and being able to attend sports etc locally to us.
In my experience, the only option for your eldest son's education at his age is international school. It will be far easier for him to make friends at an international school. He will also be able to participate in extra curricular activities if offered by the school.
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Old 03.08.2021, 19:59
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

Here is an advice centre of the City of Zurich (not sure where you're planning on moving to), about education, in English.
https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/ssd/de/...rachen/en.html

Here is the Viventa school, which offers young people living within the City of Zurich a kind of bridge year, to help them integrate into Swiss society (how the world ticks, here), learn German, and also to help them work out what to do next, onces their language skills are up-to-date.
https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/ssd/de/...tegration.html
Im Berufsvorbereitungsjahr Sprache und Integration bauen Sie Ihre Deutschkenntnisse aus und trainieren Kompetenzen für das Arbeitsleben. Sie lernen, Ihren Alltag in Zürich selbständig zu gestalten und bereiten sich auf eine Berufsausbildung vor. Ihre Lehrperson begleitet und unterstützt Sie bei der Lehr- oder Arbeitsstellensuche.
In the language and integration pre-vocational training year, you build up your German language skills and train competences for working life. You learn how to organise your everyday life in Zurich independently and prepare for vocational training. Your teacher will accompany and support you in your search for an apprenticeship or a job.
https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/ssd/de/...asserelle.html
Sie sind zwischen 15 und 21 Jahre alt, neu in Zürich und möchten sich auf eine Berufsausbildung vorbereiten. In der Passerelle lernen Sie Deutsch und Mathematik, setzen sich mit Ihrer Lebenssituation auseinander und lernen, sich im Schweizer Alltag zurechtzufinden.
You are between 15 and 21 years old, new to Zurich and would like to prepare for vocational training. In the Passerelle you will learn German and mathematics, come to terms with your living situation and learn how to find your way in everyday life in Switzerland.
Some young people go from Viventa into the "Sekundarschule für Erwachsene" (this is the level of school that most people in Switzerland complete, before they leave school). Others, can move into a practial training (typically one year, low pay, part training on the job), and yet others into an apprenticeship.

Apprenticeships take 2, 3 or 4 years, depending on the field. The person absolutely has to have a fairly good command of German, to do this, because they go to school for 1 or 2 days per week, throughout that time, and work on the remaining days of the week.

The range of apprenticeships is very wide, from carpenter, electrician, and plumber (that one also knows in anglophone countries) but then also covering many other areas such as shop staff, nurse, hairdresser, painter, lab assistant, various kinds of techicians, glazier, confectioner, baker, and office clerk. All of these qualifications (and there are many more) are respected and considered a reasonable way to earn one's living. There is not automatic pressure, in Swiss society, to go to university: some do, some don't, and that's considered fine.

From there, a person who has completed their apprenticeship can then add on additional years or modules which will grant them permission to attend technical or business colleges, and in some cases, even universities.

For the purely academic stream, there is also the option of attending the "Maturitätschule für Erwachsene", which is a way for an adult to catch up on the university-entrance that they would have done, had they gone to Gymnasium school.

This might be another helpful resource:
https://www.educationsuisse.ch/en/ed...nd/preparatory

This is the Swiss handbook (in English) on apprenticeships, which sets out the framework. At the end, there are more links of information centres, etc.
https://www.berufsbildung.ch/DYN/bin...gweiser_en.pdf
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Old 03.08.2021, 20:51
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

Great info above!
I would not put at 15 yr old without a solid knowledge of the local language into local school unless you put him into one of the above programs. Even so, it will be very difficult to learn enough of the language to be successful in the school part of an apprenticeship, and to find an employer willing to take that chance. Gymnasium is out of the question, as language plays a huge role. He would only have one year to learn the language before entering, and for the first six months he would understand virtually nothing. They would very likely not even let him try.
He would be much better off in a private school, where he can learn in English until A-levels or IB.
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Old 03.08.2021, 20:54
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

Actually, OP has not yet stated whether their son is following a UK style education (GCSE -> A-Levels) or e.g. US, IB.

In the OP’s position, I would look to continue whatever track he is already on.
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Old 03.08.2021, 21:04
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

OK, at 15 I went to France for a year, with no previous knowledge of French, in a normal lycee.

At the end of the year, my French was perhaps at the native level of someone 2 years younger, but I a) had 3 French classes/day (my class, plus the next two lower years) and b) lived with a family who were both teachers and made me do at least one dictée/day.

French is still my second language, and my primary Swiss language, even when I lived in ZH, and also first moved down south.

It is also still the lingua franca at work.

Tom
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Old 03.08.2021, 21:19
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

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Great info above!
I would not put at 15 yr old without a solid knowledge of the local language into local school unless you put him into one of the above programs. Even so, it will be very difficult to learn enough of the language to be successful in the school part of an apprenticeship, and to find an employer willing to take that chance.
According to Viventa's info, they work to help the young people find apprenticeships, or further schooling, and are quite successful. Certainly I have seen young people who were able to communicate, after just one year, at least enough to begin a practical training of one of the 2-year apprenticeships, and who were thereafter able to upgrade that to the next level.
https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/ssd/de/...enbildung.html
Scroll down to the video, with German sub-titles, and see 0:53.

Here's an example of a very determined (and that is the key factor, I believe) young woman who reached quite an impressive level of fluency within one year.
https://youtu.be/cYc8WV5MkLs
Where there's a will, there's a way
It has English sub-titles.
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Old 03.08.2021, 21:51
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

For your younger child, this programme might be able to assist, should he want to move into gymnasium, after a few years. Disclaimer: I do not know enough about this project to comment. It's aim is to find ways to support children whose parents are not Swiss, or have not always lived here, to take the entrance exams to gymnasium, from primary, or at least from secondary school
https://www.chagall.ch/konzept/
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Old 03.08.2021, 22:15
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

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OK, at 15 I went to France for a year, with no previous knowledge of French, in a normal lycee.

At the end of the year, my French was perhaps at the native level of someone 2 years younger, but I a) had 3 French classes/day (my class, plus the next two lower years) and b) lived with a family who were both teachers and made me do at least one dictée/day.

French is still my second language, and my primary Swiss language, even when I lived in ZH, and also first moved down south.

It is also still the lingua franca at work.

Tom
at your 15 there was no requirement to register dogs either I assume
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Old 03.08.2021, 22:18
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

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Actually, OP has not yet stated whether their son is following a UK style education (GCSE -> A-Levels) or e.g. US, IB.

In the OP’s position, I would look to continue whatever track he is already on.
Agreed, although she they hint at an interest in physics, so probably not an apprenticeship. I only added the information regarding vocational training because they did mention it.
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Old 04.08.2021, 00:00
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

Dear OP, whichever schooling route you choose, get your eldest son (or both) learning German now with a private tutor. In the 7 months before the move a lot could be learnt.
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Old 04.08.2021, 05:32
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Re: Entering school sysytem with a 15 year old English speaker

Hi, thanks for the response. We are British , Dutch family but coming from middle east to Switzerland and spent 9 months living in Austria a few years ago so he is used to some of the differences but probably there will be as you say some differences in teen life for him to navigate.

Thats helpful to know about the Swiss German learning, im glad he would be able to make friends and communicate in English and High German. He has started to learn German now and has some familiarity with it from the period of time we were in Austria. I was hoping to get some intensive courses done before the move to make things a little easier.
Thanks for the info about the gymnasium, it sounds really difficult and makes me think my A levels were rather easy! I think he will be better taking A levels and igcses as he already been focusing on the sciences and maths so is probably better continuing that, as well as German, than attempting several other subjects.
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