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  #21  
Old 14.02.2011, 13:21
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Re: Can you believe this?

Link to junior lawyers' salaries for city firms in London:
http://www.rollonfriday.co.uk/Inside...8/Default.aspx
NQ: newly qualified
1PQE: 1 yr of post-qualification experience etc.

Mind, these numbers do not apply to law firms throughout the UK.
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  #22  
Old 14.02.2011, 13:54
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Re: Can you believe this? [Pay rates for new graduates, and for foreigners]

he is not earning that much. full stop.

first year associates at top US law firms are paid USD 160k/year. the legal education system there requires 3 years of law school post-college so it may be similar to having a masters degree here in switzerland.
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  #23  
Old 14.02.2011, 17:31
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Re: Can you believe this?

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How does 10k per week equal 480k? Are there not 52 weeks per year?
48 working weeks.
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  #24  
Old 14.02.2011, 17:33
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Re: Can you believe this? [Pay rates for new graduates, and for foreigners]

The reason I came to ask on the forum is because 480k per year for a 26 year old made no sense to me whatsoever! it was wayyy too outlandish...but considering that I am a foreigner who is fairly new to the country, I opted to ask and not assume...
Anybody practicing law in CH??
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  #25  
Old 14.02.2011, 17:34
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Re: Can you believe this?

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Sounds harsh but...you need to sell yourself well and be confident standing your ground. This is about your sales technique nothing else.

Play the game like anywhere else, stand firm and ask for what you want if you don't get it no deal. You'll be surprised how many companies do play. I made a fair bit recently fighting over their "maximum" which I doubt existed in the first place, then again you need to be holding the right cards which is difficult at the beginning of a career.

Aparantly Germans command higher salaries working in CH against the Swiss, don't know how much truth is in that.

I always work this out what I think the position is worth plus 10%, if they don't play go elsewhere. That 10% probably pushes them to their real maximum.

Then again I'm lucky I have a broad CV in my field which allows me to play hardball.

German or no German they will pay for my experience, and if they can find someone with my CV at my age who's Swiss/local good luck. They will pay double for someone at an older age with the same background. Coming from the UK I have an advantage of experience over most Swiss/Europeans who leave university a lot later.

The game is continued each year by most at salary review time, I'll be back in the managers office in January with evidence to show I'm worth a decent increase. (Always keep a daily log you will need that at the end of the year) Also I will have the market rate in my hand and interviews/offers lined up in Yr 2.

Remember there isn't nothing like money in the bank regardless of what a company says, unfortunately unless you are very lucky companies do everything they can to keep costs down in training/wages/conference trips etc.

So the only tactic at the moment is to play hardball, although I would take training every day over money.
Thanks Catalyst.
These Swiss employers behave like pimps. They hustle you to a salary they want you to get, especially for a new comer
Keep the good tips coming
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  #26  
Old 14.02.2011, 17:37
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Re: Can you believe this?

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IMO - rubbish! I think he means he is billed out at 250chf per hour which sounds reasonable for a Masters Graduate in the most expensive country in the world (a junior associate at a magic circle law firm in london bills at 150 gbp per hr approx). However that same junior associate will probably earn 30k - 40k. The law firm gets most of it, and the lawyer may do a lot of work that isn't billed out.
I know...you'd have to be an exceptional lawyer with an unprecedented record to earn that kind of cash here in CH. But again, I am new in CH and don't have any experience with salaries here except for the fact that my potential employers all try to low-ball me...They sound very convincing with that attitude of take it or leave we'll get somebody else -you're still a foreigner.
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  #27  
Old 14.02.2011, 17:40
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Re: Can you believe this? [Pay rates for new graduates, and for foreigners]

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Anybody practicing law in CH??
Yes. And I have access to market salary data - your number is way off the track.
Unless you are the personal wealth lawyer for Mssrs. Ben Ali, Mubarak, Putin, Berlusconi etc......
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  #28  
Old 14.02.2011, 17:42
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Re: Can you believe this? [Pay rates for new graduates, and for foreigners]

I've always toyed with the idea of doing up law school once I'm done with my present studies. But it seems like a lot of reading. 400+ K salary a year might convince me to learn to read
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  #29  
Old 14.02.2011, 17:49
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Re: Can you believe this? [Pay rates for new graduates, and for foreigners]

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The reason I came to ask on the forum is because 480k per year for a 26 year old made no sense to me whatsoever! it was wayyy too outlandish...but considering that I am a foreigner who is fairly new to the country, I opted to ask and not assume...
Anybody practicing law in CH??
It's more likely that a 26 year old has completely missed the mark.
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  #30  
Old 14.02.2011, 17:56
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Re: Can you believe this?

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I know...you'd have to be an exceptional lawyer with an unprecedented record to earn that kind of cash here in CH. But again, I am new in CH and don't have any experience with salaries here except for the fact that my potential employers all try to low-ball me...They sound very convincing with that attitude of take it or leave we'll get somebody else -you're still a foreigner.
as others have said, its his hourly rate out to clients, not the amount he earns. 250 an hour billed would make sense for a talented 26 year old lawyer, his salary as mentioned is much less than this.

250 per hour earned is not valid - what does the law firm charge clients in this case, CHF 500 per hour (you would expect at least double at the minimum) ? - they would get no business for a newly qualified at this rate.
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  #31  
Old 14.02.2011, 18:03
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Re: Can you believe this?

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Thanks Catalyst.
These Swiss employers behave like pimps. They hustle you to a salary they want you to get, especially for a new comer
Keep the good tips coming
Keep the pimp hand strong and slap them for as much as you can. Don't back down until they meet you at what you feel is right.

Walk away if the deal isn't there. If they won't negotiate now how do you think they will react at annual review time?

Be careful though if you position yourself at the top of a shite hays pay scale or similar there's no room to go up to higher salaries. You effectively cap yourself unless you get promotion. (Although it means your sale skills are great, which is a good thing.)

In this case fight again at review time or move company if they don't give you an option in either.

a) Training (leave after training)
b) a) + Promotion within one year.

Usually ends up in moving company, hence make sure 1 1/2yrs into a position you are interviewing and have offers, then your pimp hand becomes super strong.

One of my standard questions in interview now is do you use a Hays payscale or equivalent? They keep salaries artificially low, and it also means you'll be working with muppets as the company is not paying the correct rates for the job role and experience.

No company will help you with career progression (Or they are extremely rare) that's up to you to sit there and take it from behind, or get off your behind and take control of your future.

The golden rule is 2yrs max in a role unless there is some form of progression in the form of cash or training. Usually in 2yrs you'll know a job inside out and really you need new challenges if you are to get anywhere in your career.

Play these idiots at their own game.
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  #32  
Old 14.02.2011, 18:16
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Re: Can you believe this?

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48 working weeks.
Would he not be a salaried employee and get a fixed monthly salary as apposed to getting paid per hour he works?
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  #33  
Old 14.02.2011, 19:03
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Re: Can you believe this? [Pay rates for new graduates, and for foreigners]

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Yeah, right, because there are no overhead costs.
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How does 10k per week equal 480k?
some of you guys should really learn about 'approximations'
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  #34  
Old 14.02.2011, 20:30
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Re: Can you believe this?

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what you want to do is be a partner in a law firm. then you can employ graduates for 50chfs an hour and have them earn 250chfs an hour for you and you get to pocket the 200chfs an hour profit.
Many, many moons ago when I trained as an accountant, I accompanied the senior partner of the big 4 firm I was with to a client meeting.... the client commented on how hard the partner must have worked to build up such a fine firm - and his answer surprised me for it's frankness: "Only for a year or two, then I hired lots of others work hard instead!"

Jim.
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  #35  
Old 14.02.2011, 22:27
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Re: Can you believe this? [Pay rates for new graduates, and for foreigners]

Just so that you know, I have yet to meet a lawyer or stock broker who didn't hate their life. Be careful what you wish for.
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  #36  
Old 14.02.2011, 22:39
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Re: Can you believe this?

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I agree but when they keep a person on for 4 years without even an inflationary pay increase it is ridiculous.

Then constantly citing the recession as reasons for not putting the junior accountants in for their chartered exams when they know fine well that the only reason they don't want them to be chartered is because they have to increase their pay.

They really don't treat their junior staff well
Why don't they organise sitting the exams themselves? Then apply for jobs where the CAQ is wanted. Working for four years as an accountant with no salary increase, doesn't make sense to me.
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  #37  
Old 14.02.2011, 22:47
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Re: Can you believe this? [Pay rates for new graduates, and for foreigners]

I work for an actuarial consultancy and my hourly rate * 7hrs * 260 working days = about 6x my salary, and I'm probably going to be charged out higher when I move to PWC (but with similar salary).

Of course I could go contract and get approx 2x what I earn now, but no holidays and no job security. That would be a closer reflection to the value of my work.

Anyway, chargeout rate is no real indication of salary as it depends on many more factors
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  #38  
Old 15.02.2011, 04:44
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Re: Can you believe this? [Pay rates for new graduates, and for foreigners]

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Anyway, chargeout rate is no real indication of salary as it depends on many more factors
Very true, not the least of which is any worldwide or longterm agreements with a particular company, year in which such agreements were established, negotiating skills on both sides of the table, and the work being done. That said, the rate listed by the OP seems like a reasonable charge-out rate for a newbie.


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Just so that you know, I have yet to meet a lawyer or stock broker who didn't hate their life. Be careful what you wish for.
You need to get out more. I know many that love their lives/jobs - despite the fact that they make a boatload more money than PhDs...
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