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  #21  
Old 18.04.2011, 11:33
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

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most of the big organisations dont hire women wearing head scarf and the dislike seems to be on the increase
Really, and your source would be?
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  #22  
Old 18.04.2011, 12:09
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

"Migros allows them everywhere "except where it is hygienically unsound"."

Haha, if this is true its too funny. How many times have I seen a butcher at migros serving customers with a toally uncovered head. Talk about unhygienic!
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  #23  
Old 18.04.2011, 12:14
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

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I wouldn't even say that a headscarf is excusively religious, so how do you ban it for secular reasons?
With a simply guideline for employees. Just as most Swiss businesses do not want their customer facing staff to have visible piercings, tattoos, wearing baseball caps...

It will boild down to the same thing we discussed some fifty times: Is a headscarf "only clothing" or is it a sign to be a fundamental Muslim. For me it is the latter - otherwise it would be no issue to take it off, would it? It is a symbol. Not only form being Muslim, but a specific take on the religion. So what does the scarf carry as values? Can I as an employer accept these values?

You soon end up in discussions that are fairly ironic if they were not about real people: Say you want to be an employer that is tolerant and "equal opportunity": So you want to employ people from both genders, various religions and give them equal opportunities. You naturally therefore need to expect your employees to treat each other accordingly: They need to tolerate each other.

In my eyes means a head scarf more than "I am Muslim" - it means that you are fundamental when it comes to your believes and this is pretty much the opposite of tolerant. It means that you do not believe that people of another faith are equal to you and it means that you do not believe that both genders should have the same rights.

It will boil down to the same "where does personal freedom stop" discussion as always: If I want a tolerant climate in my company, will I accept a guy with "white power" tattoos? Probably not. A head scarf is not as direct, but I for one cannot believe that a Muslima who cannot work without it can be tolerant. Same is true for all other religions - I would not want to work with some Christian fanatic either.
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Old 18.04.2011, 12:14
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Coop doesn't allow them for sales staff ('Verkäuferinnen') who have a specific dress code to follow - no headcoverings of any sort. They are still allowed in the warehouse etc. so I guess it's not strictly true that they "don't hire women with headscarves."

Migros allows them everywhere "except where it is hygienically unsound".

Meanwhile Ikea actually provides them as an optional part of the uniform! (Or did a couple of years ago - I assume they still do.)
Coop needs to change their policy in the interest of fairplay. If a store has no problem taking Muslim business, they should have no problem with Muslim employees who like wearing a scarf that matches their uniform.

I find headscarves attractive and hygienic, especially where food is being served, as long as they're not too long.

Kudos to Ikea for including it in the uniform.

I see women in headscarves and business/work attire all over the place in Geneva.
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Old 18.04.2011, 12:20
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

This thread has a lot of practical potential, for other expats in similar circumstances.

Can we please stick to confirming what we know about employers' headscarf policies, and not drift off into the usual religion/politics debate? There are other threads for that. Thanks.
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Old 18.04.2011, 12:21
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

"In my eyes means a head scarf more than "I am Muslim" - it means that you are fundamental when it comes to your believes and this is pretty much the opposite of tolerant. It means that you do not believe that people of another faith are equal to you and it means that you do not believe that both genders should have the same rights."

Thanks for talking on behalf of all Muslims!
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Old 18.04.2011, 12:21
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

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It will boil down to the same "where does personal freedom stop" discussion as always: If I want a tolerant climate in my company, will I accept a guy with "white power" tattoos? Probably not. A head scarf is not as direct, but I for one cannot believe that a Muslima who cannot work without it can be tolerant. Same is true for all other religions - I would not want to work with some Christian fanatic either.
But then again, a Christian wearing a crucifix wouldn't be regarded as a fanatic, would they?

I wouldn't give a monkey's if I was served in a shop by any religious fanatic - how would I know anyway? If they start banging on about religion to me then they are probably breaking a company rule and would be dealt with appropriately ("Please don't scare the customers") but just by wearing a crucifix, headscarf, turban or all three - I don't care, doesn't affect their ability to do the job, whatever it might be.
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Old 18.04.2011, 12:22
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

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In my eyes means a head scarf more than "I am Muslim" - it means that you are fundamental when it comes to your believes and this is pretty much the opposite of tolerant. It means that you do not believe that people of another faith are equal to you and it means that you do not believe that both genders should have the same rights.
???

How about: "I am someone with a strong faith?"

Contrary to popular belief here in the West, a headscarf doesnt signal an oppressed woman under Islam. Lots of Muslim women in South East Asia I know, and went to school with, make the conscious decision to wear the tudong by choice - and arent fundamentalists nutjobs. They go out to work, socialise like everyone else - they just are much more religious and disciplined when it comes to diet and certain lifestyle choices.
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  #29  
Old 18.04.2011, 12:28
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With a simply guideline for employees. Just as most Swiss businesses do not want their customer facing staff to have visible piercings, tattoos, wearing baseball caps...

It will boild down to the same thing we discussed some fifty times: Is a headscarf "only clothing" or is it a sign to be a fundamental Muslim. For me it is the latter - otherwise it would be no issue to take it off, would it? It is a symbol. Not only form being Muslim, but a specific take on the religion. So what does the scarf carry as values? Can I as an employer accept these values?

You soon end up in discussions that are fairly ironic if they were not about real people: Say you want to be an employer that is tolerant and "equal opportunity": So you want to employ people from both genders, various religions and give them equal opportunities. You naturally therefore need to expect your employees to treat each other accordingly: They need to tolerate each other.

In my eyes means a head scarf more than "I am Muslim" - it means that you are fundamental when it comes to your believes and this is pretty much the opposite of tolerant. It means that you do not believe that people of another faith are equal to you and it means that you do not believe that both genders should have the same rights.

It will boil down to the same "where does personal freedom stop" discussion as always: If I want a tolerant climate in my company, will I accept a guy with "white power" tattoos? Probably not. A head scarf is not as direct, but I for one cannot believe that a Muslima who cannot work without it can be tolerant. Same is true for all other religions - I would not want to work with some Christian fanatic either.
Wearing a headscarf makes someone religious, but not a fanatic. I imagine fundamentalist female Muslims would cover their face as well, and not work in places they'd have contact with men. I have no problem with religious people as I am comfortable in my own beliefs.

I work in a multicultural environment that includes women with headscarves. They are as tolerant as the next person, and are just ordinary people with a different style of dress. I imagine that very few of them would hesitate to take off the scarf to work, but in my opinion it's rude to ask them to do so.
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  #30  
Old 18.04.2011, 12:30
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

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This thread has a lot of practical potential, for other expats in similar circumstances.

Can we please stick to confirming what we know about employers' headscarf policies, and not drift off into the usual religion/politics debate? There are other threads for that. Thanks.
Ok. I'll try my best. Swiss authorities do not believe that wearing a head scarf is a necessary right covered by the freedom of religion. When an unemployed Muslim female rejected a job offer where the employer did not allow her to wear the scarf, the Arbetislosenkasse cut her unemployment benefits. She went to court, lost, moved it on to the highest Swiss court and lost again: http://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/zentra...rt;art92,87982

Swiss courts believe that it is acceptable for Muslims to work in positions in which they have to dress like non-Muslims.
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  #31  
Old 18.04.2011, 12:32
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

Discussing the rights and wrongs of wearing a headscarf is pointless.

The facts are: some women choose to wear headscarves, and would like to go to work in their headscarves. Some employers do not permit their employees to wear headscarves in certain positions.

The question is: which employers will employ a woman who wears a headscarf?

I don't see what there is to debate here...
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Old 18.04.2011, 12:36
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

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But then again, a Christian wearing a crucifix wouldn't be regarded as a fanatic, would they?
Yes they would - that's exactly the point. The discussion on headscarves was in Switzerland mainly on teachers up to now. "Should a teacher be allowed to wear a head scarf" is exactly based on this: You are not allowed to show political or religious symbols. So as a teacher, you do not wear a SVP t-shirt in class and you do NOT wear a big visible crucifix. Is a scarf a religious symbol? For me, it is.

Would I care if kids have a female Muslim teacher? No.
Would I care if she wears a scarf? No.
Do i care that the scarf is treated then differently than Christian symbols? Yes.
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Old 18.04.2011, 12:48
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

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Would I care if kids have a female Muslim teacher? No.
Would I care if she wears a scarf? No.
Do i care that the scarf is treated then differently than Christian symbols? Yes.
Does the OP care that you care? No.

Is it even possible for someone to ask a practical question related to religion without the thread turning into a ****storm?
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Old 18.04.2011, 12:54
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

Hmmmm.. I wonder if this is an extension from the Burka issue that was passed in some Cantons or simply that these companies have a dress code...
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Old 18.04.2011, 13:01
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

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Hmmmm.. I wonder if this is an extension from the Burka issue that was passed in some Cantons or simply that these companies have a dress code...
Well, Coop's policy hit the news in 2004 - so no, probably not an extension of things that happened six years later.

If you all really want to discuss the rights and wrongs, the theology and the politics of it, International Affairs is the place. There are numerous threads about it already so pick one.

Now, on this thread, can we get back to practicalities, please? Else it will be locked.

Which major Swiss employers are happy to have women wear headscarves to work and which employers aren't?
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Old 18.04.2011, 13:05
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

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Is it even possible for someone to ask a practical question related to religion without the thread turning into a ****storm?
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Old 18.04.2011, 13:46
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

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Is it even possible for someone to ask a practical question related to religion without the thread turning into a ****storm?
And it wasn't even related to religion, it was related to employment

Perhaps it'll be more useful to the OP if folks were to actually post/PM details of any places that do employ women with headscarves (as opposed to those that don't), so s/he can in turn help the person in question?

That out of the way, the debate can be resumed in this thread or elsewhere - ad infinitum, ad nauseum till the mods close us down
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Old 18.04.2011, 14:02
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

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???

How about: "I am someone with a strong faith?"

Contrary to popular belief here in the West, a headscarf doesnt signal an oppressed woman under Islam. Lots of Muslim women in South East Asia I know, and went to school with, make the conscious decision to wear the tudong by choice - and arent fundamentalists nutjobs. They go out to work, socialise like everyone else - they just are much more religious and disciplined when it comes to diet and certain lifestyle choices.
Common, the difference is blatantly obvious: As in 99% of discussions on here is the Swiss context the key. I am in no way saying that a head scarf is wrong or evil and I BTW never said that a Muslim is a nutter... all I am saying that it is a religious symbol and that a woman who is not willing to take it off for work makes a stronger statement of her belief system than a Swiss employer that sets up a clothing guideline and treats headscarfs the same way as baseball caps.

So, back on topic: Companies I have seen allowing headscarves:
- ISS cleaning services. www.ch.issworld.com
- Burger King. Last Friday, the lady that served me there had a head scarf. This was in Germany though, but I would expect the Swiss branch to have in principle the same rules?
- everything ethnic from Turkish shops to your kebab restaurant.
- ...

P.S: For all the people who trash the thread - the discussion was from the start absolutely not "practical" and applied, but just the same as "can I live on 120000 CHF": What education does "the friend" have? What work experiences?... this was from the beginning so vague that it can hardly stay on topic or give tips that really help.
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  #39  
Old 18.04.2011, 14:28
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

Do employers make different rules for employees who wear a headscarf to hide a lack of hair versus a religious reason? They shouldn't, but do they have different rules for different reasons.
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  #40  
Old 18.04.2011, 14:57
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Re: Employers that hire women with headscarves

I have been googling on this for a while, and it's a tough google. I think that rather than find companies that do or don't fancy a headscarf, it might be more helpful to look for companies that are most likely to want to hire a Muslim in general. What about http://www.arabbank.ch/Pages/Default.aspx or http://www.arabbank.ch/Pages/Default.aspx for example.

Have a look at these guys

http://www.izrs.ch/index.php/en.html

Maybe a job with them is on the cards? Either way, I'd give them a call (no emails) or better yet, make an appointment to go round for a chat. I'm sure they'll have contacts and be able to help. Whenever you're part of a religion, nationality or other group, this should be seen as an asset - you have a ready made set of contacts, groups and associations more likely to help you.
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