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-   -   Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland? (https://www.englishforum.ch/employment/112916-chf120k-good-salary-switzerland.html)

vastor 03.05.2011 16:05

Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Since a picture is worth a thousand words - here is a picture:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5101/...7c33906464.jpg

Legend:

Bruttoeinkommen - gross income, income before taxes

Armutgrenze - poverty line
Unterschicht - lower class
Mittelstand - middle class
Oberschicht - upper class

Einpersonenhaushalt - single person household
Alleinerziehend mit 1 Kind - single parent with 1 child
Paar ohne kind - couple without children
Paar mit 2 Kindern - couple with 2 children

V.

gata 03.05.2011 16:09

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
I assume that one kind soul will translate that for people who dont speak German. I sort of got it but i cant see where it makes references in money

Mud 03.05.2011 16:09

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Best thread title ever. :msncool:

Ouchboy 03.05.2011 16:14

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
This is totally not what I expected....

Win!

stephen_NE 03.05.2011 16:16

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
One interesting thing about these figures is that a previously-well paid single person still comes towards the top end of the "middle-class" band even on unemployment benefit (which is capped at about 7,000 CHF a month).

I'm not sure if this says more about the generosity of the State or about just how many middle-class Swiss people are living perfectly well on what a lot of expats would consider to be "low" salaries.

slammer 03.05.2011 16:17

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Whoopsie, just hovering above the poverty line, must see the manager about that raise.

Mud 03.05.2011 16:21

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
It's interesting that the income level to be above poverty if significantly higher for a couple with a kid than for a single parent. Due to the insane lunch time regime here and cost of childcare I would think that would be reversed in the real world.

seyon 03.05.2011 16:40

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
And this numers are salary by month, before or after taxes?
Make a huge diference for me. From being in the middle of the Mittelstand to the border of Unterschicht!! :msnshock:

Mud 03.05.2011 16:43

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by seyon (Post 1185068)
And this numers are salary by month, before or after taxes?
Make a huge diference for me. From being in the middle of the Mittelstand to the border of Unterschicht!! :msnshock:

By month, before taxes.

Country_Mouse 03.05.2011 16:44

Brutto is gross salary

Fridge 03.05.2011 16:52

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mud (Post 1185030)
It's interesting that the income level to be above poverty if significantly higher for a couple with a kid than for a single parent. Due to the insane lunch time regime here and cost of childcare I would think that would be reversed in the real world.

My guess is that this also takes into consideration potential tax deductions.

TidakApa 03.05.2011 17:15

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Ha Ha !!!

I opened this hoping to be entertained by reading all the sledges and insults directed at the OP........

...... but your thread is excellent !!!

Mud 03.05.2011 17:17

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fridge (Post 1185094)
My guess is that this also takes into consideration potential tax deductions.

I'm sure you're right, but the reality I hear from several Swiss families and personal experience says it still doesn't matter. The 'second' income in a dual income family gets taxed more heavily, yes, and at least around here you pay childcare on a sliding scale based on income.

But a dual income family, even paying more taxes and higher childcare costs still come out better than a single parent who is paying the minimum childcare costs. Add in the inflexibility of timetables- I think it is much harder for a single parent here to keep their head above water much less have a comfy middle class lifestyle. Much easier for a couple to juggle lunchtimes and sick kids and such than a single parent, the single parent will always have to fork out cash to compensate when they are physically unable to look after their child during working hours.

seyon 03.05.2011 17:21

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mud (Post 1185076)
By month, before taxes.

then, if this graph is before taxes in not that good. As the diferences of taxes paied by people are huge. I pay much more taxes than some of my collegues...

I need an increment of salary. :msngrin:

Golfprostew 03.05.2011 17:23

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by billhardie (Post 1185138)
Ha Ha !!!

I opened this hoping to be entertained by reading all the sledges and insults directed at the OP........

...... but your thread is excellent !!!

Me too, now that it's confirmed this could signal the end :-(

TidakApa 03.05.2011 17:27

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mud (Post 1185142)
I'm sure you're right, but the reality I hear from several Swiss families and personal experience says it still doesn't matter. The 'second' income in a dual income family gets taxed more heavily, yes, and at least around here you pay childcare on a sliding scale based on income.

But a dual income family, even paying more taxes and higher childcare costs still come out better than a single parent who is paying the minimum childcare costs. Add in the inflexibility of timetables- I think it is much harder for a single parent here to keep their head above water much less have a comfy middle class lifestyle. Much easier for a couple to juggle lunchtimes and sick kids and such than a single parent, the single parent will always have to fork out cash to compensate when they are physically unable to look after their child during working hours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by seyon (Post 1185151)
then, if this graph is before taxes in not that good. As the diferences of taxes paied by people are huge. I pay much more taxes than some of my collegues...

I need an increment of salary. :msngrin:



Guys,

it's just a graph


I'm not taking a shot at either of you, but we know there will be a million exceptions to the rule, so best not to take this too seriously and just appreciate it as a consolidated answer to the 11.2Billion threads asking about salary.

03.05.2011 17:31

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Just to clear something up

Poverty

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...ty-383x480.png


NOT poverty

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...iss-people.jpg

Guest 03.05.2011 17:35

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Thanks vastor, I was actually going to ask why oh why another thread like this was created but I will eat my words :msnblush:

Fridge 03.05.2011 17:42

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 1185168)


In principal, yes. Though that really doesn't work when comparing economic terms.

The issue is that the class-zones are relative. I don’t believe that this has anything to do with “ease of life”, but more so with relative wealth.

So, yes, I am fully aware that a single parent struggles - but at the end of the day, in economic terms, the average child does not cost the equivalent to the average adult. Add to that the tax deduction potential of a child vs. and adult and you end up with a lower deviation to the class barrier.

You also can't compare the income classes of the world inclusively for a usable rate. We are in Switzerland after all, the only thing you would get from such a graph is that we all reside in the top 2% for the world - and how can you use that to compare to your neighbour?

stephanienie 03.05.2011 17:47

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 1185168)


Why did you have to post a picture like that? It caught me offguard. Im holding back my tears now thank you very much.

PaddyG 03.05.2011 17:57

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanienie (Post 1185193)
Why did you have to post a picture like that? It caught me offguard. Im holding back my tears now thank you very much.

Yes, those guys in the red jackets really are quite disturbing.

Guest 03.05.2011 18:00

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
I have to agree with Stephanie, it was a bit insensitive Porshie, but I still like u

Guest 03.05.2011 18:13

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
I don't think Porsch meant to be insensitive however hard the pictures to take. It is true to say that many here in CH, UK, US etc, have no idea what true poverty really is.

Peg A 03.05.2011 18:21

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Actually, the question of poverty vs non is something significant to my mind as hubby and I probably would be treading the line or else below poverty level according to that graph... and yet...

A friend who lives in the US recently commented that with bills left to pay and groceries left to buy, they had about $10 left in their bank acct. They'd made some huge changes and then she got sick (and she wasn't getting any help as her illness was severe migraines, which apparently aren't seen as officially debilitating) so they were living on one income. Sure they'd thought they had it planned to be okay to begin with but still wound up with a week or more to go until payday and only $10 to figure out how to live off.

Meanwhile, hubby and I, while we carefully do not do much going out to eat or running off to another country on vacation multiple times a year, we are NOT stuck trying to figure out how to live off our last 10chf by the end of the month. Poverty line or no, I think we're doing okay. Sure not up to the standards of some - not up to the activity level I prefer myself - but certainly not "impoverished" either.

NotAllThere 03.05.2011 18:30

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
I assume if your kids are over 14, that the poverty line increases, rather than just ignoring the extra kids?

Uncle Max 03.05.2011 18:34

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 1185168)

Perhaps you meant 'Starvation', rather than poverty? Poverty exists for real in Switzerland. You may not see it but it's certainly there.

03.05.2011 18:52

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Max (Post 1185241)
Perhaps you meant 'Starvation', rather than poverty? Poverty exists for real in Switzerland. You may not see it but it's certainly there.

Quote:

Poverty is the lack of basic human needs, such as clean and fresh water, nutrition, health care, education, clothing and shelter, because of the inability to afford them
I refuse to believe that a couple earning 4k per month lacks basic human needs.

I refuse to believe that anyone in Switzerland lacks basic human needs unless it is by choice.

Poverty is just the wrong word. If you added a 'relative' to the beginning of the word I might be convinced.

03.05.2011 18:53

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Also apologies to anyone that was upset by the picture. It wasn't my intention.

Guest 03.05.2011 19:14

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
One of my brothers is on 'the social' BY CHOICE - he just goes traveling as soon as he has money then comes back and goes on 'social' - and I can assure you that he is well fed and always has a beer in his hand, with his health Insurance paid. Again and again - he is in his 60s. Very easy to find free/cheap clothes, furniture, etc, in CH. HIS choice entirely - and he is NOT poor (thanks to mugs like you and me).

Uncle Max 03.05.2011 22:01

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 1185251)
I refuse to believe that a couple earning 4k per month lacks basic human needs.

I refuse to believe that anyone in Switzerland lacks basic human needs unless it is by choice.

Poverty is just the wrong word. If you added a 'relative' to the beginning of the word I might be convinced.

Oh ok so there's no poverty in Switzerland if you refuse to believe it. It's pretty patronising to those with very little - but indeed! running water and no threat of war - who bend over backwards and worry themselves sick each month to make ends meet. Relative to what? Those with an extra lettuce to divide in Altstetten or the souls in Darfur? If it's the latter there's no discussion, but then what is the discussion?

Ever lived below the poverty line here?

Poverty exists in Switzerland. That charity is available is to some a god send; the social / welfare isn't always enough.

Sent using a HiSpeed internet connection from a fancy modern computer in Zurich city.

03.05.2011 22:26

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Max (Post 1185405)
Oh ok so there's no poverty in Switzerland if you refuse to believe it. It's pretty patronising to those with very little - but indeed! running water and no threat of war - who bend over backwards and worry themselves sick each month to make ends meet. Relative to what? Those with an extra lettuce to divide in Altstetten or the souls in Darfur? If it's the latter there's no discussion, but then what is the discussion?

Ever lived below the poverty line here?

Poverty exists in Switzerland. That charity is available is to some a god send; the social / welfare isn't always enough.

Sent using a HiSpeed internet connection from a fancy modern computer in Zurich city.

According to that chart yes I do live below the poverty line.

Uncle Max 03.05.2011 22:54

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 1185434)
According to that chart yes I do live below the poverty line.

But people in Darfur have it real bad, so it doesn't exist here. This is a merry dance...

Phil_MCR 03.05.2011 23:46

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
how on earth can just under seven kilochuffs be poverty line? a few days ago, people were campaigning for a 4k minimum salary. i think we should all campaign for a 30k minimum salary.

Phil_MCR 03.05.2011 23:59

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanienie (Post 1185193)
Why did you have to post a picture like that? It caught me offguard. Im holding back my tears now thank you very much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angela-74 (Post 1185207)
I have to agree with Stephanie, it was a bit insensitive Porshie, but I still like u

Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 1185252)
Also apologies to anyone that was upset by the picture. It wasn't my intention.

that's so insensitive of you porsch! sheesh. i bet you're the kind of person who puts those pictures of starving children through my letter box with donation envelopes? or maybe you help make those films on charity fund-raisers where you try to guilt-trip me to death with pictures of half-dead children swatting flies?

i mean really - this is not on! i came to switzerland to be surrounded by wealth and easy living! the most stressful and upsetting i want my day to be is perhaps fretting about laundry rotors or not being able to buy brown sugar.

i can't believe you can get away with this! how very dare you!!! :mad:

Uncle Max 04.05.2011 00:23

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 1185491)
how on earth can just under seven kilochuffs be poverty line? a few days ago, people were campaigning for a 4k minimum salary. i think we should all campaign for a 30k minimum salary.

A couple with three kids making just under 7k will have it hard, but can get by. The poverty line mark is the upper edge of poverty. People also have to get by on a lot lower levels. All it takes is one large medical bill and things get very tight...

NotAllThere 04.05.2011 07:40

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Max (Post 1185405)
...- who bend over backwards and worry themselves sick each month to make ends meet....

And, as happened to a couple of friends of mine, when they get sick, they worry about the hospital bills, because the help you get for that is one year in arrears. Or as another man I know, who's on the social at age 55, you have to decide whether to heat your house during winter. ( The fact that some people live well enough on social is irrelevant ).

Notwithstanding personal definitions of poverty, the dictionary definition is simply "being poor", or "not having enough". If you haven't got enough money to meet basic bills - health, housing, utilities - then you are in poverty.

Obviously there's no extreme poverty in Switzerland, but if you've found no evidence of poverty here, then you haven't looked.

Fridge 04.05.2011 07:58

How and why are you guys still debating this?

Have you never bothered to view and understand economic statistics before? It's economics, the dismal, sociopathic science - there are no feel-good results, just cold numbers (within the confines of the statistics polled).

Poverty is relative - why do you think that cost of living indexes are always so inaccurate? It's of no consequence to tell a family in Switzerland that lives off of 3000/month that people in Thailand make that in a year... It doesn't help them, doesn't make their bills any easier to pay and doesn't exactly inspire confidence in them to improve their situation. Nobody cares about your "definition" of poverty, it's about relative wealth, not absolute.

Bottom line is that, yes, we are all aware of the atrocities of the world, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what this graph states.

The only thing this graph really needs is a geo-qualifier. Cost of living, and the resulting projected income in Zürich city is not the same as somewhere in Thurgau and so the divisions would need to be adjusted for accuracy.

grumpygit 04.05.2011 08:14

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fridge (Post 1185565)
How and why are you guys still debating this?

Have you never bothered to view and understand economic statistics before? It's economics, the dismal, sociopathic science - there are no feel-good results, just cold numbers (within the confines of the statistics polled).

Poverty is relative - why do you think that cost of living indexes are always so inaccurate? It's of no consequence to tell a family in Switzerland that lives off of 3000/month that people in Thailand make that in a year... It doesn't help them, doesn't make their bills any easier to pay and doesn't exactly inspire confidence in then to improve their situation. Nobody cares about your "definition" of poverty, it's about relative wealth, not absolute.

Bottom line is that, yes, we are all aware of the atrocities of the world, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what this graph states.

The only thing this graph really needs is a geo-qualifier. Cost of living, and the resulting projected income is not the same as somewhere in Thurgau and so the divisions would need to be adjusted for accuracy.

I take it youre a statistician then :)

Fridge 04.05.2011 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by grumpygit (Post 1185575)
I take it youre a statistician then :)

Not at all actually - but that doesn't mean I shouldn't at least try to understand it, no?

Carlos R 04.05.2011 09:17

Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?
 
Back to the original graph, there are a real non sequitur in there to my mind.

As you "progress" through life, i.e. single househould, double household, SINK, DINK, S/DIWK n=1/2/3 etc., the band of what is poverty and is not, changes.

To me it is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy and doesn't make sense.

Notwithstanding certain cultures where having lots of kids is the norm, who, on a tight budget, would have lots of kids?

Similarly, if you were a family with 1 child, a salary of c16k per month would put you in the "upper class", yet add another child all of a sudden you are go down a bracket, and the upper class bracket is even more distant if you have 3 children - that doesn't make sense in absolute terms - to me >16k/month is IMO a very good salary with or without 3 children. (I'll say "relatively" good salary for those sensitive souls out there :rolleyes:.)

People looking at this graph, might think that employers in CH "reward" you by giving you more pay to have more children, which is patently not the case.

As a final thought, and maybe that's just the translation, but the Swiss don't understand a class system - it's not just about money you know... :p


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