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Old 03.05.2011, 16:05
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Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

Since a picture is worth a thousand words - here is a picture:



Legend:

Bruttoeinkommen - gross income, income before taxes

Armutgrenze - poverty line
Unterschicht - lower class
Mittelstand - middle class
Oberschicht - upper class

Einpersonenhaushalt - single person household
Alleinerziehend mit 1 Kind - single parent with 1 child
Paar ohne kind - couple without children
Paar mit 2 Kindern - couple with 2 children

V.

Last edited by vastor; 03.05.2011 at 16:57. Reason: Additional translations
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Old 03.05.2011, 16:09
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

I assume that one kind soul will translate that for people who dont speak German. I sort of got it but i cant see where it makes references in money
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Old 03.05.2011, 16:09
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

Best thread title ever.
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Old 03.05.2011, 16:14
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

This is totally not what I expected....

Win!
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Old 03.05.2011, 16:16
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

One interesting thing about these figures is that a previously-well paid single person still comes towards the top end of the "middle-class" band even on unemployment benefit (which is capped at about 7,000 CHF a month).

I'm not sure if this says more about the generosity of the State or about just how many middle-class Swiss people are living perfectly well on what a lot of expats would consider to be "low" salaries.
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Old 03.05.2011, 16:17
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

Whoopsie, just hovering above the poverty line, must see the manager about that raise.
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Old 03.05.2011, 16:21
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

It's interesting that the income level to be above poverty if significantly higher for a couple with a kid than for a single parent. Due to the insane lunch time regime here and cost of childcare I would think that would be reversed in the real world.
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Old 03.05.2011, 16:40
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

And this numers are salary by month, before or after taxes?
Make a huge diference for me. From being in the middle of the Mittelstand to the border of Unterschicht!!
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Old 03.05.2011, 16:52
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

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It's interesting that the income level to be above poverty if significantly higher for a couple with a kid than for a single parent. Due to the insane lunch time regime here and cost of childcare I would think that would be reversed in the real world.
My guess is that this also takes into consideration potential tax deductions.
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Old 04.05.2011, 11:04
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

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It's interesting that the income level to be above poverty if significantly higher for a couple with a kid than for a single parent. Due to the insane lunch time regime here and cost of childcare I would think that would be reversed in the real world.
That would depend on whether one or two parents are working.

And, having lived as a two parent family with kids, and as a single parent with kids, I can assure you that living costs are less as a single parent.

Tom
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Old 03.05.2011, 16:44
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Brutto is gross salary
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Old 03.05.2011, 17:35
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

Thanks vastor, I was actually going to ask why oh why another thread like this was created but I will eat my words
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Old 04.05.2011, 07:58
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How and why are you guys still debating this?

Have you never bothered to view and understand economic statistics before? It's economics, the dismal, sociopathic science - there are no feel-good results, just cold numbers (within the confines of the statistics polled).

Poverty is relative - why do you think that cost of living indexes are always so inaccurate? It's of no consequence to tell a family in Switzerland that lives off of 3000/month that people in Thailand make that in a year... It doesn't help them, doesn't make their bills any easier to pay and doesn't exactly inspire confidence in them to improve their situation. Nobody cares about your "definition" of poverty, it's about relative wealth, not absolute.

Bottom line is that, yes, we are all aware of the atrocities of the world, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what this graph states.

The only thing this graph really needs is a geo-qualifier. Cost of living, and the resulting projected income in Zürich city is not the same as somewhere in Thurgau and so the divisions would need to be adjusted for accuracy.
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Old 04.05.2011, 08:14
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

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How and why are you guys still debating this?

Have you never bothered to view and understand economic statistics before? It's economics, the dismal, sociopathic science - there are no feel-good results, just cold numbers (within the confines of the statistics polled).

Poverty is relative - why do you think that cost of living indexes are always so inaccurate? It's of no consequence to tell a family in Switzerland that lives off of 3000/month that people in Thailand make that in a year... It doesn't help them, doesn't make their bills any easier to pay and doesn't exactly inspire confidence in then to improve their situation. Nobody cares about your "definition" of poverty, it's about relative wealth, not absolute.

Bottom line is that, yes, we are all aware of the atrocities of the world, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what this graph states.

The only thing this graph really needs is a geo-qualifier. Cost of living, and the resulting projected income is not the same as somewhere in Thurgau and so the divisions would need to be adjusted for accuracy.
I take it youre a statistician then
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Old 04.05.2011, 08:24
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I take it youre a statistician then
Not at all actually - but that doesn't mean I shouldn't at least try to understand it, no?
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Old 04.05.2011, 09:17
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

Back to the original graph, there are a real non sequitur in there to my mind.

As you "progress" through life, i.e. single househould, double household, SINK, DINK, S/DIWK n=1/2/3 etc., the band of what is poverty and is not, changes.

To me it is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy and doesn't make sense.

Notwithstanding certain cultures where having lots of kids is the norm, who, on a tight budget, would have lots of kids?

Similarly, if you were a family with 1 child, a salary of c16k per month would put you in the "upper class", yet add another child all of a sudden you are go down a bracket, and the upper class bracket is even more distant if you have 3 children - that doesn't make sense in absolute terms - to me >16k/month is IMO a very good salary with or without 3 children. (I'll say "relatively" good salary for those sensitive souls out there .)

People looking at this graph, might think that employers in CH "reward" you by giving you more pay to have more children, which is patently not the case.

As a final thought, and maybe that's just the translation, but the Swiss don't understand a class system - it's not just about money you know...
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Old 04.05.2011, 10:34
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

I think this meant to be the lowest amount a person can live on and have to make compromises to finish their month, as per the social assistance calculations here, the monthly minimum is calculated this way:

1 person:

1100 Rent
1250 Pocket monet
70 CH Transport
400 Health Insurance
Total: 2820 CHF

2 person + kid:

1100 Rent
1850 Pocket monet
140 CH Transport
1000 Health Insurance
Total: 4090 CHF

If someone is living in rural areas, this can be sufficient, if living in the city then people would struggle to live normally.

Swiss define poverty as missing essentials to live and income going under the vital minimum which is 1250 CHF after paying rent, transport and insurance
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Old 04.05.2011, 11:17
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

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I think this meant to be the lowest amount a person can live on and have to make compromises to finish their month, as per the social assistance calculations here, the monthly minimum is calculated this way:

1 person:

1100 Rent
1250 Pocket monet
70 CH Transport
400 Health Insurance
Total: 2820 CHF

2 person + kid:

1100 Rent
1850 Pocket monet
140 CH Transport
1000 Health Insurance
Total: 4090 CHF

If someone is living in rural areas, this can be sufficient, if living in the city then people would struggle to live normally.

Swiss define poverty as missing essentials to live and income going under the vital minimum which is 1250 CHF after paying rent, transport and insurance

We fall under "paar mit 1 kind" in mittelstand. One parent working. We live in a rural area but our rent is around 1500. Quite comfortable but most of the time i still feel poor especially since all my belongings still fit in one average-sized travelling bag...with some space left.

Anyhoo, im just waiting for the groaner to justify why i was groaned. I come from a third world country and have experienced living among families who have children who look like the ones in the picture. My family help back home help those people on a regular basis. Not just by feeding them but by using our connections to get them sponsored trainings, find employers if we dont employ them ourselves. So im not spoiled or anything. I dont get it. Maybe a groan back would make me feel better? End of story.
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Old 04.05.2011, 11:22
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

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We fall under "paar mit 1 kind" in mittelstand. One parent working. We live in a rural area but our rent is around 1500. Quite comfortable but most of the time i still feel poor especially since all my belongings still fit in one average-sized travelling bag...with some space left.

Anyhoo, im just waiting for the groaner to justify why i was groaned. I come from a third world country and have experienced living among families who have children who look like the ones in the picture. My family help back home help those people on a regular basis. Not just by feeding them but by using our connections to get them sponsored trainings, find employers if we dont employ them ourselves. So im not spoiled or anything. I dont get it. Maybe a groan back would make me feel better? End of story.
Forgetting about it and not caring is the best course of action Stephanienie. I have 65 groans and I've never giving a crap about any of them.
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Old 04.05.2011, 11:00
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Re: Is CHF120K a good salary in Switzerland?

Discussing what poverty is and what poverty is not only in terms of money does not make much sense, since poverty, as well as poorness, hardship, misery, scarcity and also wealth and richness – they all are state of mind rather than state of pocket. However, both of these states are coupled, and it depends on the given individual how tightly coupling is. It is absolutely not possible to draw a solid line and say that below this line you can’t make it, and above you will be fine.

People can adapt to have comfortable life using whatever resources they have, however, their life might be less comfortable than the life of their better doing neighbors – one can be forced to use public transportation, and the other might have a choice, one can go for two weeks vacation in 5* hotel in Aruba, the other might go hiking in the mountains, and so on, but I believe, none of them is really poor.

Real poverty starts, when someone is not able to satisfy their basic physiological needs which are required for body survival – food, drinks, clothing, and shelter. Everything above is a kind of luxury. Obviously, the line of the graph gives some safety space, however, if someone felt below this line and stays there for a longer period, things might go wrong. So, I would read it as a warning sign rather, than a real status mark.


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