Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 18.06.2011, 20:02
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,200
Groaned at 86 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 5,788 Times in 2,254 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Online application: a nightmare?

I had a nice dinner with former colleagues who are hunting for a new job (in IT sector). It became clear from the discussion about what they are experiencing that online application is a real nightmare. They have in average 10-15 years experience in IT/telecom yet they are not able to find jobs. The recurring pattern is sending online Cv+cover letter and filling out a form, sometimes you get an automated email response confirming application. Then they don't hear anything for 1-3 weeks until they decide to call to ask about the status of process. Funny responses provided by HR: we have no deadline, we did not decide yet, we call you back etc.....and nothing happens.
I started reading reports about the employment market in Switzerland and found the "Recruiting Trends Suisse 2011" from Monsters.ch (500 companies asked about recruitment status) claiming that 42% of the published position are difficult to fill because of lack of candidates. The reports states that there is high demand for candidates with specialized skills.
Another study from Potentialpark surveying online application states that 70% of applicants are unhappy with the online application process of most companies. The recurrent word is "blackbox" and lack of transparency. A top rating of best company carreer sites is given in the study for European countries, asia, US.

So what is happening? On one hand companies having difficulties finding good candidates with specialized skills and on the other hand skilled candidates applying but not getting offers. Where is the truth?
__________________
Resist, support, donate: ACLU
They tried to bury us, they did not know that we are seeds (Mexican proverb)
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MrVertigo for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 18.06.2011, 20:24
MacGregor's Daughter's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 3,169
Groaned at 31 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 3,563 Times in 1,463 Posts
MacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Thanks for this post. I find both ways, online and via snail mail pretty depressing. You actually have to get back to them to get an answer.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 18.06.2011, 20:49
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,352
Groaned at 363 Times in 293 Posts
Thanked 23,675 Times in 8,568 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Quote:
View Post
So what is happening? On one hand companies having difficulties finding good candidates with specialized skills and on the other hand skilled candidates applying but not getting offers. Where is the truth?


Obviously both:
1. Currently the job market is good for qualified and experienced IT people. Loads of jobs out there. What typically happens is that the employers that are used to pay under-average rates start to moan how difficult it is to fill positions. I bet they don't have the problem at the more popular employers.

2. The overall attitude on "How to deal with applicants" is getting worse and worse. Not only here, but everywhere. In the past, putting an ad into a newspaper was expensive - so companies only did publish jobs they actually wanted to fill. Now there are a lot of ads out there that do not really have a job behind them - its basically free to put them online, so why not look how good the market is and who responds... in the past, you could expect a timely invite or a rejection letter that gives some reasons why you don't fit. Today these online systems, especially at larger employers have some prepared standard texts and the apprentice who filters your CV will simply hit a button which sends you some standard response... or nothing at all.

On the other hand am I sometimes wondering if applicants would send out equally shitty formated CVs if they actually had to print them out and look at them...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 18.06.2011, 20:55
Lejoker's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 576
Groaned at 20 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 285 Times in 181 Posts
Lejoker has no particular reputation at present
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Quote:
View Post

So what is happening? On one hand companies having difficulties finding good candidates with specialized skills and on the other hand skilled candidates applying but not getting offers. Where is the truth?
I filled out an online application with the beloved U.N. in December of 2010. I just got a response yesterday saying they Nopsies.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 18.06.2011, 20:57
adrianlondon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 9,131
Groaned at 170 Times in 153 Posts
Thanked 25,643 Times in 6,892 Posts
adrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

When I receive applications for a job I want to fill, I pick half of them at random and throw them in the bin. I don't want to employ someone who's unlucky.

.

Last edited by adrianlondon; 18.06.2011 at 21:45. Reason: This is a joke by the way. I don't usually get involved with hiring/firing.
Reply With Quote
The following 12 users would like to thank adrianlondon for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 18.06.2011, 21:07
MacGregor's Daughter's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 3,169
Groaned at 31 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 3,563 Times in 1,463 Posts
MacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond reputeMacGregor's Daughter has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Quote:
View Post
When I receive applications for a job I want to fill, I pick half of them at random and throw them in the bin. I don't want to employ someone who's unlucky.
I always suspected something like that.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 18.06.2011, 21:36
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,200
Groaned at 86 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 5,788 Times in 2,254 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Quote:
View Post
When I receive applications for a job I want to fill, I pick half of them at random and throw them in the bin. I don't want to employ someone who's unlucky.
you did like that customer of an expensive restaurant who was served a lobster with a missing claw. He asked where the 2nd claw is. The waiter responded:"it was lost in the aquarium during a fight with another lobster". "For this price bring me at least the winner" shouted the customer.

Quote:
View Post
I always suspected something like that.
they do keyword spotting. If they don't find the keywords mentioned in the ad text they throw away the CV.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 18.06.2011, 22:12
RTN RTN is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Uetikon am See
Posts: 1,481
Groaned at 13 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 1,689 Times in 756 Posts
RTN has a reputation beyond reputeRTN has a reputation beyond reputeRTN has a reputation beyond reputeRTN has a reputation beyond reputeRTN has a reputation beyond reputeRTN has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Quote:
View Post
you did like that customer of an expensive restaurant who was served a lobster with a missing claw. He asked where the 2nd claw is. The waiter responded:"it was lost in the aquarium during a fight with another lobster". "For this price bring me at least the winner" shouted the customer.



they do keyword spotting. If they don't find the keywords mentioned in the ad text they throw away the CV.
There is some similar relevant points here State of the job market

Switzerland being Switzerland, everthing (business) hinges on relationships so it would be fair to assume online applications are similar to online dating - you can see what is out there, but would you really want to marry them?
If you are serious about finding a job, find a good recruiter/headhunter in your locale and field, listen to their advice on what your options are with your current CV. There are a lot of crap recruiters out there.
As it stands here at the moment (IMHO) education is everything, experience is nothing, every employer wants a PHD for a Batchelors price (Batchelors don't get a look in - regardless of experience), sorry sad but true. More education doesn't directly translate to being better at your job. This is more relevant to sales and marketing positions, without a degree no job but if you have a degree are you really a hotshot sales person? A vicious circle.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank RTN for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 18.06.2011, 22:34
stephen_NE's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Luzern
Posts: 1,512
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 1,594 Times in 758 Posts
stephen_NE has a reputation beyond reputestephen_NE has a reputation beyond reputestephen_NE has a reputation beyond reputestephen_NE has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Quote:
View Post
online application is a real nightmare[/I].
Yes, I can confirm that. Two particularly annoying things I have seen recently are:

Job sites where, in addition to filling in all the usual info, submitting a CV and motivation letter, candidates have to respond to one or two "key questions" like, for example, "Do you have at least ten years' experience as an IT project manager ?". I suppose the result of a wrong answer is that your application never even gets as far as the recruiter's inbox, which can only encourage lying on the candidate's part. JobUp.ch is doing this a lot at the moment, presumably at the request of the companies who are using them to search for candidates.

Job sites where candidates actually have to pay for "premium status" before the can see the full text of the jobs that they want to apply for. Quite honestly, the very principle of expecting someone to pay for the privilege of being allowed to apply for a job makes me want to vomit . One site in particular whose name starts with an E uses this practice.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank stephen_NE for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 18.06.2011, 22:46
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,200
Groaned at 86 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 5,788 Times in 2,254 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

I found references to old studies mentioning that only 4% of job seekers find a position through an online site. Your network & referrals are still the most efficient way to get hired. Therefore the Linkedin, XING and other business social networks can improve your chances....I'd rather look there before monsters.ch or the fee-based experteer.ch.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 18.06.2011, 23:47
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 8,714
Groaned at 317 Times in 244 Posts
Thanked 20,043 Times in 6,989 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Lots of companies have off shored their hr department, meaning that the first and maybe second scan of the cv will be handled by less-trained personnel. You especially have this when using an e-recruitment system
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 19.06.2011, 00:01
LondonAl's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Geneva
Posts: 84
Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 70 Times in 29 Posts
LondonAl is considered knowledgeableLondonAl is considered knowledgeableLondonAl is considered knowledgeable
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Hmmmmmm, I'm going to apply London rules to this, so please don't groan, it is what I know.

Getting new employees is a difficult process, you want the best, you need the best etc..

The web is the best option to get everyone on board, but how do you determine who is the best? A decent CV will get you looked at - I'm not a newbie to the internet but I always constantly trim my CV to the job I'm applying to - this I think in my experience is the cause why people go 'no one looks at my cv'

I can only apply this to IT, but, if you are applying to a job which wants SQL and DB why have those 5 lines of how good you are at coding VB.......?

It works both ways - and if you were in the UK, you'd have someone phoning you up saying that there is the perfect position up north for half the money you are looking for, and why don't you go for it.........

The Swiss want qualified and experienced people - they get the qualified entry level from home, that extra bit from working in NYC, Paris, London, Sydney that's the deal breaker....

Just imho....
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 19.06.2011, 00:02
evilshell's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK, formerly Basel
Posts: 3,347
Groaned at 97 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 3,093 Times in 1,341 Posts
evilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond reputeevilshell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

The situation is identical in the UK these days, too.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 19.06.2011, 00:12
Ittigen
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Looking around, I think a lot of people are coming from Asia and of course they think 60'000 is an excellent salary. The companies tell the Swiss government they can't get Swiss people, they employ Asians and save themselves 50% HR costs.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 19.06.2011, 00:22
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,352
Groaned at 363 Times in 293 Posts
Thanked 23,675 Times in 8,568 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Quote:
View Post
Job sites where candidates actually have to pay for "premium status" before the can see the full text of the jobs that they want to apply for. Quite honestly, the very principle of expecting someone to pay for the privilege of being allowed to apply for a job makes me want to vomit . One site in particular whose name starts with an E uses this practice.
I was once a paying user of this website and can confirm that it is not worth your hard earned cash. Their business model worked very well in a financial crisis, but as soon as the markets improve - as right now - nobody gets desperate enough to believe their bull claims. No, there are not more headhunters waiting there for you than on the free sites as monster.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 19.06.2011, 00:38
RTN RTN is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Uetikon am See
Posts: 1,481
Groaned at 13 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 1,689 Times in 756 Posts
RTN has a reputation beyond reputeRTN has a reputation beyond reputeRTN has a reputation beyond reputeRTN has a reputation beyond reputeRTN has a reputation beyond reputeRTN has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Quote:
View Post
Looking around, I think a lot of people are coming from Asia and of course they think 60'000 is an excellent salary. The companies tell the Swiss government they can't get Swiss people, they employ Asians and save themselves 50% HR costs.
I think your a bit off the mark (Asians) and out of date. Two or three years ago a lot of companies were searching "not Switzerland" for cheaper employees but post GFC and comparing apples with apples, the Swiss person will get the job every time, there is still a reluctance here to employ foreigners.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank RTN for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 19.06.2011, 00:40
Mowvich's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Genève
Posts: 1,422
Groaned at 28 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 1,308 Times in 607 Posts
Mowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Just a fact a found, most recruiters have nothing to do with what they are recruiting for, i always research the recruiters profiles on linkedin, most of the time, they have previous experience in sales, marketing or any un relevant career, still they're responsible for hiring for IT....so unless you copy paste what matches in the job description to your experience (and i really mean copy paste), you're never getting contacted by them.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 19.06.2011, 00:41
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

With internet, you never know if the job offer is real or not.
Some companies just put it online out of marketing reasons, faking growth or for propaganda purposes within their field. The aim is to give a false impression to the competing companies.
Some companies need an official advertisement in order to fullfill the visa application requirements, even if they already have the right person for the job. In private schools, it's a huuuuuuuuuuuge problem.
Some companies are just testing their attractivity and adjusting their salary policies. The adds aime at potential candidates to see what money it needs to attract what kinf of profile and that becomes part of the internal HR cuisine.
Some companies post unachievable prince charming adds in order to have a huge reserve of excuses to say no to candidates for reasons that would be illegal if they said the real reasons.

Still, there must be some adds of jobs that actually exist. So I've heard.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 19.06.2011, 10:44
stephen_NE's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Luzern
Posts: 1,512
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 1,594 Times in 758 Posts
stephen_NE has a reputation beyond reputestephen_NE has a reputation beyond reputestephen_NE has a reputation beyond reputestephen_NE has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Quote:
View Post
I found references to old studies mentioning that only 4% of job seekers find a position through an online site. Your network & referrals are still the most efficient way to get hired. Therefore the Linkedin, XING and other business social networks can improve your chances....I'd rather look there before monsters.ch or the fee-based experteer.ch.
I would agree with you on this. I found my last job through a recommendation from within my personal network, and my impression is that this is the best chance I have of finding my next one.

Funnily enough, there was an article about this in yesterday's edition of L'Express, the local paper in Neuchâtel. The statistics they quote are:

25% find a job through online sites like Monster or JobUp
20% through networking and contacts
18% through an employment agency
10% through adverts in the printed media
2% through social media such as LinkedIn or Facebook

Not sure what happens to the remaining 25%... presumably they are still looking ?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 19.06.2011, 13:13
Lejoker's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 576
Groaned at 20 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 285 Times in 181 Posts
Lejoker has no particular reputation at present
Re: Online application: a nightmare?

Quote:
View Post
No, there are not more headhunters waiting there for you than on the free sites as monster.
How & where do you find them??
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
employment, jobs, online application




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cat nightmare Flamelily Pet corner 31 16.06.2011 20:32
Living a nightmare, please help! Guest General off-topic 72 17.10.2010 16:28
New to Skiing - the nightmare leylak Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 75 15.03.2010 07:24
The ultimate EF nightmare Begga General off-topic 16 26.01.2010 11:49


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:09.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0