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  #61  
Old 25.08.2011, 12:37
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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Are you saying that you understand exactly what the Irish government mean by unemployment and that you agree with that definition and method of gathering the data? Do you feel that it is a good universal measure?
Given that I have an Masters in Economics I would like to think that have at least a passing knowledge of the definition of unemployment. The Live Register and more particularity the Quarterly Household Survey give as accurate a picture as we can hope to get on unemployment in the economy. Can you suggest a better method?

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Or do you just blindly trust that the government will tell you the truth in its pure unadulterated form every time....because if you do, I really have a deal that I would love to chat to you about concerning some land in a swamp...oh sorry, Florida?
I used to work closely with people from the CSO actually. You are alleging that they are falsify figures. I would love to see your evidence.
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Old 25.08.2011, 12:47
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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Given that I have an Masters in Economics I would like to think that have at least a passing knowledge of the definition of unemployment.
I am overawed by your qualifications and will bow to your superiour knowledge due to the fact that I have nothing more than a highschool degree and intelligence and wisdom are all based on peices of paper from Universities? May I ask which one?
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I used to work closely with people from the CSO actually. You are alleging that they are falsify figures. I would love to see your evidence.
Okay, you got me on wording. Generally I don't have a lot of faith in government figures because yes, they are often fudged or adjusted according to the needs of the government. Gordon Brown for instance used the tactics of creating a whole load of meaningless jobs in government which helped change the unemployment figures drastically but which actually worsened the economy over the long term.

Seriously though, if you say the figures from Ireland are solid and they follow the standard definition from the ILO, then I appologise for asserting that they were incorrect.
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Old 25.08.2011, 12:47
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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Many of those exist in France too and I beg to differ that "employment at will" benefits workers. Not always the case my friend if you've ever experienced close colleagues being handed a box and escorted out of the building by security.
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  #64  
Old 25.08.2011, 12:51
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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Many of those exist in France too and I beg to differ that "employment at will" benefits workers. Not always the case my friend if you've ever experienced close colleagues being handed a box and escorted out of the building by security.
Yes, but your question was are there any systems that work. Are you saying that none of those systems work?

Employment at will cuts both ways. Ever seen an employee that does not like his work situation stand up, walk out the door and over the road to a better job. I have and I have done it.....Benefit, woot!

All of these things cut both ways but to make a statement about the fact that no system at all on the planet has ever benefited an employee or got them engaged and working better is just plain bollox.
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Old 25.08.2011, 13:01
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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Yes, but your question was are there any systems that work. Are you saying that none of those systems work?

Employment at will cuts both ways. Ever seen an employee that does not like his work situation stand up, walk out the door and over the road to a better job. I have and I have done it.....Benefit, woot!

All of these things cut both ways but to make a statement about the fact that no system at all on the planet has ever benefited an employee or got them engaged and working better is just plain bollox.
The original comment was that the French system doesn't work and that's what I was disagreeing with. Every system has its flaws & people can be happy working in any country if the system works for them. And one of the advantages of being a skilled EU worker is the ability to hop over to other countries if it's not working.
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  #66  
Old 25.08.2011, 13:17
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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Do tell me then what "system" in this world favors others besides clock watchers, card punchers, and when's lunchers?
Okay, so I must have misunderstood your context.

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Every system has its flaws & people can be happy working in any country if the system works for them. And one of the advantages of being a skilled EU worker is the ability to hop over to other countries if it's not working.
I agree with this but would even caveat it in that the determined go whever they want in the world to the best system for them.
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Old 25.08.2011, 13:39
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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My husband's company announced that they'll likely increase work hours to 45 per week (from 42.5).
That's the dumbest solution possible. Who's hiring these management dummies?

Productivity will increase 0%, costs will reduce 0%.

If it was up to me, I'd reduce working time 5%, but reduce salaries only by 4% (so effectively giving everyone a raise in per hour basis to keep people happy). Loss in productivity would be near zero, but some real savings in the books.
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  #68  
Old 25.08.2011, 14:04
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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Seriously though, if you say the figures from Ireland are solid and they follow the standard definition from the ILO, then I appologise for asserting that they were incorrect.
Okay.

I'll ignore the silliness about qualifications. Just be careful about challenging people you don't know on their knowledge
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  #69  
Old 25.08.2011, 14:07
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

i guess it depends on the job. if you are on a factory line, then increasing hours should increase productivity. but i'm not sure i would be more productive by being in the office longer. i think i only have about 4 productive hours a day.
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Old 25.08.2011, 14:13
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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Hardly completely irrelevant. The point is that there are plenty of jobs in Switzerland. It's not like you should be grateful to have and old job in this market. Now if you have a job you are happy with, then fine. But there is no reason for you to stay in current job should you be unhappy.
Nope. Still completely irrelevant.

1) The % is a national average. I'd hazard a guess that at the mo in Basel, the unemployment rate in mid-level executives in the Pharma business sector is much higher than the national average because Roche and Novartis have been laying them off for the past couple of years

2) Some people cannot "job hop" - once you reach a certain level you are usually stuck in your career field.

3) The employment figures for CH conveniently forget that many job losses are incurred by Grenzenganger - i.e. those that work(ed) here but live abroad in neighbouring countries. If you were to factor these, I'd bet your employment figures would be higher.

I'd have thought someone with a Masters in Economics would work all this out...

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Why would he take a job that's 50 hours a weeks after quitting over working 45 hours a week?
Likewise, I think you missed the OP's point - her hubby is being "asked" to work longer hours for no greater pay. Not whether or not he wants to work short or long hours. Again someone with a Masters in Economics should be able to spot that.

I'm not saying it isn't shitty - I'm just saying keep some perspective.

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i guess it depends on the job. if you are on a factory line, then increasing hours should increase productivity. but i'm not sure i would be more productive by being in the office longer. i think i only have about 4 productive hours a day.
Parkinson's law...
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  #71  
Old 25.08.2011, 14:15
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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Just be careful about challenging people you don't know on their knowledge
Actually I earn my living by doing exactly that. You will notice that I am agressive in assertions about something that I may feel is even slightly fishy (and government figures always smell to me) but am quick to listen and change my mind when needed. Tis what I do and both myself and my clients generally find that it cuts through a lot of bull.
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  #72  
Old 25.08.2011, 14:18
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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I'm not saying it isn't shitty - I'm just saying keep some perspective.

...
and the company in question does need to do something. Musings, tell your husband to go to the finance department and ask for mroe info, if you have any doubts about that.
If this particular "something" is really the thing to do is always up to discussion, that's why there is a consultation period. If most employees say that they don't want to work more but would instead take a paycut or do something else to cut costs and/or increadse productivity, then I'm sure management will consider this as well.

PS if you are living in France then cutting the subsidies won't affect you much, the company in question does not subsidize French health insurance anyway.
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  #73  
Old 25.08.2011, 14:18
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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i think i only have about 4 productive hours a day.
Yup, most of my work is intellectual and it gets done whenever my mind finishes working on it. I don't claim hours at night when my sub-concious is working on things as working hours so generally I don't believe in clock watching but rather measure the deliverables that I produce.
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Old 25.08.2011, 14:19
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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mmm...I work in a pharma/biotech company.. interesting insight into the world of suppliers....
We have fewer meetings and they are more productive. Hope that helps give you more insight. Time - or rather billable hours - really is money for an agency, and seeing as this can be directly measured it means we have easy metrics, unlike the rather vague ones of an HQ.

To be fair, Roche isn't too bad - but you (or my clients anyway) travel way way way more and with the whole Genentech thing, end up working from dawn 'til dusk being stuck between the East and West.

Novartis though - Hell, they spend all day in meetings protecting their backs and dealing with people who have either penis envy or a size complex, and once done only then head off to their offices around 1900 hrs to catch up on their day's work.

Just my observations and from discussions with friends (who work there) and former colleagues who've gone from agency to client moaning about how inefficient everything is.
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  #75  
Old 25.08.2011, 17:20
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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Nope. Still completely irrelevant.

1) The % is a national average. I'd hazard a guess that at the mo in Basel, the unemployment rate in mid-level executives in the Pharma business sector is much higher than the national average because Roche and Novartis have been laying them off for the past couple of years

2) Some people cannot "job hop" - once you reach a certain level you are usually stuck in your career field.

3) The employment figures for CH conveniently forget that many job losses are incurred by Grenzenganger - i.e. those that work(ed) here but live abroad in neighbouring countries. If you were to factor these, I'd bet your employment figures would be higher.

I'd have thought someone with a Masters in Economics would work all this out...
If you genuinely believe that job mobility is completely independent of the underlying unemployment rate, than fine. I can't convince you otherwise. Also bear in mind that this is not all about you and your personal situation. I am speaking in a general sense as well. Perhaps that wasn't clear earlier. I'm not saying you personally should not be grateful to have what ever job you have, rather that people in general need not necessary feel that way. Especially when compared to my home country where people are genuinely stuck in jobs.

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Likewise, I think you missed the OP's point - her hubby is being "asked" to work longer hours for no greater pay. Not whether or not he wants to work short or long hours. Again someone with a Masters in Economics should be able to spot that.
No point missing on my side. And you are putting words in my mouth. Never said any of that. Also, can we leave the snide comment about Masters to one side? No need to be nasty about this.
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  #76  
Old 25.08.2011, 17:36
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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If you genuinely believe that job mobility is completely independent of the underlying unemployment rate, than fine.
Of course I don't. I just don't think you can generalise by saying "well unemployment is only 2.8%. Nearly everyone who wants a job in Switzerland, has one", which is pretty much what you said - actually, that's exactly what you said. The rest of our discussion follows on from there, as CH is a little special, don't you know. Indeed, I was reminded of this thread when I say this other one. How about "mostly irrelevant" rather than "completely irrelevant" - does that sit better with you?

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No point missing on my side. And you are putting words in my mouth. Never said any of that.
OK. It's just that when you posted:

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Why would he take a job that's 50 hours a weeks after quitting over working 45 hours a week?
I understood that you were questioning why someone would go from a 45 hr/week job to a 50 hr/week job. If that wasn't your meaning, then clearly my comment is irrelevant, but I'm sure you can understand my confusion.

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Also, can we leave the snide comment about Masters to one side? No need to be nasty about this.
Oh come now, I'm just joshing with you, don't get too sensitive.
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Old 25.08.2011, 19:09
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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The original comment was that the French system doesn't work and that's what I was disagreeing with. Every system has its flaws & people can be happy working in any country if the system works for them. And one of the advantages of being a skilled EU worker is the ability to hop over to other countries if it's not working.
Just admit that you haven't had to run a business in the treacle that the French call a system, unless of course you've exceeded your forum time for the day and have gone home... Now that would be French, and if someone takes issue, well I guess you'll just blockade Calais and set fire to some tires.

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Old 25.08.2011, 19:42
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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That's the dumbest solution possible. Who's hiring these management dummies?

Productivity will increase 0%, costs will reduce 0%.

If it was up to me, I'd reduce working time 5%, but reduce salaries only by 4% (so effectively giving everyone a raise in per hour basis to keep people happy). Loss in productivity would be near zero, but some real savings in the books.
that's actually quite sensible. Too sensible for most businesses to implement though. They'd rather squeeze blood from a turnip.

You're dead on though. 30 more minutes and people will not produce anything more for it. They'll just be more demoralized and start looking for work elsewhere.

I don't think employers value their employees as much as they say they do.
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Old 25.08.2011, 20:08
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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Hardly completely irrelevant. The point is that there are plenty of jobs in Switzerland. It's not like you should be grateful to have and old job in this market. Now if you have a job you are happy with, then fine. But there is no reason for you to stay in current job should you be unhappy.

Just contrast that with Ireland for a second, with 14.5% unemployment. Consider how relevant unemployment rates are to people's ability to find a suitable job. I know so many people at home that are completely underemployed (not to mention those who are simply unemployed)



Why would he take a job that's 50 hours a weeks after quitting over working 45 hours a week?
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I don't follow. Are you saying Ireland doesn't have 14.5% unemployment?
(link http://www.cso.ie/statistics/sasunemprates.htm)
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Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

Are you saying that you understand exactly what the Irish government mean by unemployment and that you agree with that definition and method of gathering the data? Do you feel that it is a good universal measure?

Or do you just blindly trust that the government will tell you the truth in its pure unadulterated form every time....because if you do, I really have a deal that I would love to chat to you about concerning some land in a swamp...oh sorry, Florida?

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Given that I have an Masters in Economics I would like to think that have at least a passing knowledge of the definition of unemployment. The Live Register and more particularity the Quarterly Household Survey give as accurate a picture as we can hope to get on unemployment in the economy. Can you suggest a better method?



I used to work closely with people from the CSO actually. You are alleging that they are falsify figures. I would love to see your evidence.
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I am overawed by your qualifications and will bow to your superiour knowledge due to the fact that I have nothing more than a highschool degree and intelligence and wisdom are all based on peices of paper from Universities? May I ask which one?

Okay, you got me on wording. Generally I don't have a lot of faith in government figures because yes, they are often fudged or adjusted according to the needs of the government. Gordon Brown for instance used the tactics of creating a whole load of meaningless jobs in government which helped change the unemployment figures drastically but which actually worsened the economy over the long term.

Seriously though, if you say the figures from Ireland are solid and they follow the standard definition from the ILO, then I appologise for asserting that they were incorrect.

Actually that figure is not completely correct. The unemployment figure does not of course include the tens of thousands of unemployed people that left ireland to find work abroad or who have emigrated. So in real terms the figure would be a lot higher than 14.5%
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Old 25.08.2011, 20:22
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Re: Increased Work Hours due to the Economy

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The original comment was that the French system doesn't work and that's what I was disagreeing with. Every system has its flaws & people can be happy working in any country if the system works for them. And one of the advantages of being a skilled EU worker is the ability to hop over to other countries if it's not working.
Your location states that you live "over the border" it must be Germany and not France that you are living in because if you lived in France as I have you would understand what people are saying.

The French system doesn't work. People don't work especially those in the public service.

-Never had internet in my house in France for 6 months even though they took the money regularly from my account. Ended up having to close my bank account to stop the payments coming out.

-Had to endure long queue's in the telecoms shop at least 2 times a week for a long time to try get something done and nothing ever did.

-Speaking of said company why is it if France is great to work in and they have a great system that France telecom has had 24 of it's employees commit suicide??

-Post office 2 people sitting at seperate desks only 1 person working, other chatting to another member of staff while long queues are waiting. Bank again long queues people not working. 2 hour lunch breaks, bans closed on a Monday etc...


-Car insurance company taking money for my insurance for 2 years when in fact my car was "illegal" after a crash even though THEY told me after the repair everything was fixed and ok. If i had of had a crash during this time I wouldn't have being insured. Only came to light when I decided to change insurance companies.

-Expert for my car after inspecting it after I found out what was happening took 4 weeks to send the report to the Prefacture so that my car was made "legal" again to drive on the roads. Phone calls to the expert 2-3 times a week and it still took them 1 month to send the report after completing it.

-Prefacture themselves LONG LONG queues again with employees at the windows but actually only one or two working others ignoring the public.


I'm sorry but this is just soem of my experience of living in France I gave it a try for 6 months and in the end came to live in Basel. Maybe others have had better experience of living in France but mines wasn't very good and I will not be living there for a very long time again.
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