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Old 26.08.2011, 12:25
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RAV and penalties

I have been on RAV now for 3 months and have received a letter from them saying that I have not done enough to find employment since being
made redundant.
I have done the required 10 - 12 job applications per month and attended
2 telephonic and 2 personal interviews in that period.
In spite of this they still want to penalise me some days.Not sure how many yet.
Initially they wanted to penalise me for not doing enough during my notice period, but when presented with the 8 interviews I attended during that period, they backed off.
Anyone have similar experiences with some usefull info?

I need to add that my german is poor and I am 52 years old.
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Old 26.08.2011, 18:01
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Re: RAV and penalties

Call your RAV officer and ask for a meeting. Sit down with them and ask what SPECIFICALLy they want you to do to. They can't have an arbitrary criteria of "enough".
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Old 26.08.2011, 18:30
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Re: RAV and penalties

Were your 10-12 applications all grouped around the same part of the month ? This could lead them to believe that you want away on holiday. They made it clear to me that they wanted 10 applications spread evenly across the month (2-3 per week). Not realistic of course, as often you go days and days without seeing anything interesting to apply for, then five jobs on the same day.


Otherwise I can't see where the issue might be... 10 applications and a couple of interviews is a pretty good result, especially during the summer holiday period !
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Old 26.08.2011, 18:55
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Re: RAV and penalties

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I have been on RAV now for 3 months and have received a letter from them saying that I have not done enough to find employment since being
made redundant.
I have done the required 10 - 12 job applications per month and attended
2 telephonic and 2 personal interviews in that period.
In spite of this they still want to penalise me some days.Not sure how many yet.
Initially they wanted to penalise me for not doing enough during my notice period, but when presented with the 8 interviews I attended during that period, they backed off.
Anyone have similar experiences with some usefull info?

I need to add that my german is poor and I am 52 years old.
They try to find a reason to fine you 6 days pay, they did I appealed & lost. The court is themselves, not independent. I said I was getting freelance work & was told that was not allowed & she would get me kicked out of the country in 90 days if I did not have a job. Well 5 years on I am still registered with the RAV & I do loads of freelance work & speak no local languages. It's a game, play to win. As I do so much work they won't pay for any German lessons. I have had a C permit for over 10 years.
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Old 26.08.2011, 18:58
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Re: RAV and penalties

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Were your 10-12 applications all grouped around the same part of the month ? This could lead them to believe that you want away on holiday. They made it clear to me that they wanted 10 applications spread evenly across the month (2-3 per week). Not realistic of course, as often you go days and days without seeing anything interesting to apply for, then five jobs on the same day.


Otherwise I can't see where the issue might be... 10 applications and a couple of interviews is a pretty good result, especially during the summer holiday period !
If there are no suitable jobs apply for any job, Hospital Chief, Translator, Bank Director, that sort of thing. By law if there are no suitable jobs you must apply out of your field for ANY job.
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Old 26.08.2011, 19:27
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Re: RAV and penalties

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If there are no suitable jobs apply for any job, Hospital Chief, Translator, Bank Director, that sort of thing. By law if there are no suitable jobs you must apply out of your field for ANY job.
That is not necessarily true. I was not expected to nor did I apply for jobs outside my field. & I only needed to show 2/3 of them. So it all depends on your field of work, qualifications & your RAV/ORP "counselor".
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Old 26.08.2011, 19:32
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Re: RAV and penalties

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That is not necessarily true. I was not expected to nor did I apply for jobs outside my field. & I only needed to show 2/3 of them. So it all depends on your field of work, qualifications & your RAV/ORP "counselor".
The law is very clear on the matter, you have to do 'any' work. How the RAV counselor interprits it is another matter.
After 5 years I still submit 12 uselses jobs as a matter of course, from all over the world. They never say a word as I am complying with the law!
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Old 26.08.2011, 19:48
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Re: RAV and penalties

What would prevent anyone from sending the "spontaneous" applications to any random companies or individuals, just to comply with the law?
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Old 26.08.2011, 19:53
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Re: RAV and penalties

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What would prevent anyone from sending the "spontaneous" applications to any random companies or individuals, just to comply with the law?
You can, up to a certain extent. I was told that if my monthly target was 10 applications, one or two of those could be spontaneous. In the same way, signing up at Manpower or Adecco counts as an application.

But they won't let you abuse the system - if you hand in 6 spontaneous applications to random companies plus 4 sign-ups at agencies, they will not consider that to be 10 "proper" applications... and I can understand that, the logic of the system is that we are supposed to be spending 40 hours a week on meaningfully, actively and demonstrably looking for work.
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Old 26.08.2011, 21:01
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Re: RAV and penalties

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The law is very clear on the matter, you have to do 'any' work. How the RAV counselor interprits it is another matter.
After 5 years I still submit 12 uselses jobs as a matter of course, from all over the world. They never say a word as I am complying with the law!
The law says how many jobs you need to apply for? Can you send me please the law so I can read it? I'd hate to have broken the law.
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Old 26.08.2011, 21:07
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Re: RAV and penalties

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What would prevent anyone from sending the "spontaneous" applications to any random companies or individuals, just to comply with the law?
That was my problem I had made 200 Spontaneous applications as there were very few suitable advertisements. Even through in the RAV booklet tells you to do so it was deemed not looking properly during notice period. My first month 'unemployed' I earnt 150% of my previous salary because of my spontaneous applications. It took 3 months for my 6 days punishment to be used up.

My second Rahemnfrist did not start as I was earning too much money, so my first 'punishment' was in fact illegal because I was not technically unemployed due to my high income. The court decision was on 6th month, too early to know. In CH foreigners are guilty, evidence not required.

Basically they make it up as they go along.
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Old 26.08.2011, 21:12
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Re: RAV and penalties

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The law says how many jobs you need to apply for? Can you send me please the law so I can read it? I'd hate to have broken the law.
Zumutbare Arbeit is the issue,it's nothing to do with no of Applications, just reducing the insurance claim, it's in German so I may have copied the wrong bit!

Die Bestimmungen, wann eine Arbeit zumutbar ist oder nicht, wurden bei der Revision nicht geändert (Art. 16 AVIG). Trotzdem wird es schwerer werden, eine von der Kasse zugewiesene Arbeit abzulehnen. In der Verordnung (Art. 16 AVIV, Art. 1) wurde nämlich festgelegt, dass der Versicherte zur Schadensminderung grundsätzlich jede Arbeit unverzüglich annehmen muss.

Unzumutbar und somit von der Annahmepflicht ausgenommen ist eine Arbeit insbesondere immer noch, wenn sie nicht angemessen auf die Fähigkeiten oder auf die bisherige Tätigkeit des Versicherten Rücksicht nimmt (AVIV Art. 16, Absatz 2 b), oder die Wiederbeschäftigung des Versicherten in seinem Beruf wesentlich erschwert, falls darauf in absehbarer Zeit überhaupt Aussicht besteht (Absatz 2 d).

Last edited by fatmanfilms; 26.08.2011 at 21:23.
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Old 27.08.2011, 00:46
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Re: RAV and penalties

You are doing "loads of freelance work" and "still registered with the RAV" " five years on"

What is this "game" you "play to win" ?

AYB

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They try to find a reason to fine you 6 days pay, they did I appealed & lost. The court is themselves, not independent. I said I was getting freelance work & was told that was not allowed & she would get me kicked out of the country in 90 days if I did not have a job. Well 5 years on I am still registered with the RAV & I do loads of freelance work & speak no local languages. It's a game, play to win. As I do so much work they won't pay for any German lessons. I have had a C permit for over 10 years.
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Old 27.08.2011, 00:58
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Re: RAV and penalties

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You are doing "loads of freelance work" and "still registered with the RAV" " five years on"

What is this "game" you "play to win" ?

AYB
My contracts are 1 or 2 days, they pay well, but nothing is guaranteed. If I work 3-4 days a month it counts as 100% as far as they are concerned. I pay my unemployment insurance when I work so am entitled to claim if I don't.

By working 12 months in 24 entitles me to Unemployment pay if I am not working.

She told me that it was not allowed to be Freelance & I could only work with her permission, which is untrue due to the law on "Zumutbare Arbeit" I am still in the country, seems like I won the game. Of course if anyone wants to give me a normal full time Job then I am up for it.
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Old 27.08.2011, 11:46
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Re: RAV and penalties

This whole RAV thing is rather frustrating to me.
To start with my RAV councellor absolutely refuses to speak english.She can speak english very well.
Even her emails are in German.She doesn't care whether I understand what she is saying or not.So meetings with her are even more confusing.

I since heard there was a translation problem and they are actually penalising me for not enough applications during my notice period of 6
months.I agree I did not do the required number of applications during that period.However I did have 8 interviews during that Period.
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Old 27.08.2011, 11:51
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Re: RAV and penalties

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This whole RAV thing is rather frustrating to me.
To start with my RAV councellor absolutely refuses to speak english.
Even her emails are in German.She doesn't care whether I understand what she is saying or not.So meetings with her are even more confusing.

I since heard there was a translation problem and they are actually penalising me for not enough applications during my notice period of 6
months.I agree I did not do the required number of applications during that period.However I did have 8 interviews during that Period.
Yes that's the game, they asked me to bring a translator, (Ex Girlfriend) turned into a cat fight, then they banned her from coming & speak perfect English me ever since. I had to get the 'Law' book & work it out for myself. Once they showed me the law book with 'Zumutbare Arbeit' marked with a highlighter, I added highlighter marks in another colour to the exceptions that applied in my case as I was already doing 'Zumutbare Arbeit'

Once they decide to fine you there is little you can do, it's probably not very much. They may decide to pay for German lessons for you.

They don't like foreigners, they play dirty.
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Old 27.08.2011, 11:53
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Re: RAV and penalties

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This whole RAV thing is rather frustrating to me.
To start with my RAV councellor absolutely refuses to speak english.She can speak english very well.
Even her emails are in German.She doesn't care whether I understand what she is saying or not.So meetings with her are even more confusing.

I since heard there was a translation problem and they are actually penalising me for not enough applications during my notice period of 6
months.I agree I did not do the required number of applications during that period.However I did have 8 interviews during that Period.
Can you take a partner or friend with you who speaks German? When I was unemployed my German was still a bit shaky and I took my husband along with me, which was good because the RAV guy wasn't too helpful. The second time I was unemployed, the lady was really nice but my German had improved a lot so I didn't need help that time.

It sounds pretty unfair that they are just giving you the arbitrary fine for not applying enough but I think you should press it with them to look at bit more closely at the case, which is why you should take a German speaker with you.

8 interviews is pretty good going and is certainly better than a shedload of dodgy speculative applications. It means you were serious at finding a new job and they should take note of that.
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Old 27.08.2011, 12:02
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Re: RAV and penalties

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Yes that's the game, they asked me to bring a translator, (Ex Girlfriend) turned into a cat fight, then they banned her from coming & speak perfect English me ever since. I had to get the 'Law' book & work it out for myself. Once they showed me the law book with 'Zumutbare Arbeit' marked with a highlighter, I added highlighter marks in another colour to the exceptions that applied in my case as I was already doing 'Zumutbare Arbeit'

Once they decide to fine you there is little you can do, it's probably not very much. They may decide to pay for German lessons for you.

They don't like foreigners, they play dirty.
Yes,they have booked me on 3 months of intensive German classes.
3.5 hours per day and 5 days a week.
My last job interview is looking positive so holding thumbs.
Would like to divorce the RAV.
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Old 27.08.2011, 12:07
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Re: RAV and penalties

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Yes,they have booked me on 3 months of intensive German classes.
3.5 hours per day and 5 days a week.
They threatened me with that, however they were too tight to pay, I asked for French & was flatly refused.

The calculations for short contract workers are strange to say the least if I earn 7k each month I get no payment, if I earn 15k , 0K, 15K, they will pay me 7k the zero month If I earn 6995 they will give me a bonus on top! Each month is calculated totally separately. Also 8.33% holiday pay is deducted from your earnings for their calculations so it's quite possible to earn more than you previously did & have top up payments.
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Old 27.08.2011, 12:10
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Re: RAV and penalties

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They threatened me with that, however they were too tight to pay, I asked for French & was flatly refused.
You can have my classes.
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