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  #21  
Old 26.08.2011, 23:31
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

Listen to your conscience sweetie
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  #22  
Old 26.08.2011, 23:35
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

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Listen to your conscience sweetie
Amen to that!
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Old 26.08.2011, 23:45
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

Guidette,

it seems that you already know the answer to your question and that you already took a decision. Maybe you posted here only hoping to obtain some confirmations and pat on shoulders, in order to calm down your conscience that may be is whispering you "no guidette, this is unfair, don't do it...don't do it...".

Anyway i can totally understand you. Where i'm now (not in switzerland) it's the same story, maybe a lot more bad. The result is frustration and anger in employes. The next step is up to you, is up to us: act looking for revenge (dog world, dog eat dog) or try to stay consistent with your own ethical principles and do not play this shitball game where one granted result is to have your hands (your conscience) dirty, even if you win.
Personally speaking, i'm following the second way but i have to admit that, even if your conscience remains clean and you feel "satisfied" for your behaviour (maybe also a little bit "superior") the concrete and practical result for me a the end is ever a pain in the a*s. After several years this is starting to tire me, and temptation to chose the other way occurs more and more often.
Acting almost as aknight in shining armour it seems do not pay, maybe one day i will completely and finally realize it.
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  #24  
Old 27.08.2011, 00:07
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

If a company you work for thought they could benefit financially from giving you the push and hiring someone cheaper, do you think they would hesitate?
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Old 27.08.2011, 00:18
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

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My previous employers have been real mean to me
Do a community service and describe your previous experiences on employer black listings. Drop your feedback at glassdoor.com. For German market there is a kununu.com. Many people including myself do check the employer public record before applying or responding to an invitation. The best you can do is to mud their reputation on the web. That is, if you were indeed mistreated. Don't use this option otherwise.
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  #26  
Old 27.08.2011, 00:22
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

What goes around comes around.

That's all.
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Old 27.08.2011, 00:28
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

My rule is "do not screw with people"

Most people will just get over it but a few will take vengeance and then you've had it.
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  #28  
Old 27.08.2011, 00:49
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

The fact that you are asking 'Is this ethical?' and that for you it is a 'tough decision' should tell you all that you need to know. Since, by your logic all employers are like your previous employers, won't your 'dream job' employer be like them as well and just screw you over again? Perhaps you should start by answering your own question first. Is this ethical? All I've heard so far is 'Oh, I've been used!' 'Oh, I've been treated unfairly!' but not 'Am I doing the right thing?, Yes, and here's why for the following ethical reasons...'
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Old 27.08.2011, 01:42
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

So you live in a dog-eat-dog world, in which you must eat or be eaten.
This is not my world. I do hope people can reach higher than that.
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  #30  
Old 27.08.2011, 03:06
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

OK, so lets be practical here.

You've quit so not eligible for unemployment benefit. You've got two job offers, one in a month, one in three months.

In a recession I suggest you are lucky to have two offers and one or both could be withdrawn at any stage. Get yourself employed ASAP.

I would definitely take the first job to start because the December job might not be there in 3 months. The employer, if orders fall or whatever downturn may occur, will not hesitate to cancel your employment offer.

There's no ethics involved. It is just business. That's why there are contracts.

If your first employer doesn't want you to leave in the first few months, they should have a golden handshake in contract. If they don't, then remember, probation periods work both ways! That is why it is there.

For what its worth, I've never come across less ethical employers as the Swiss Germans. They follow the contract restrictions and until those are agreed and signed, all bets are off.

I would suggest that the December employer will conduct reviews etc already or once you have signed so there is no reason to reveal your two month sojourn. If EVER questioned about it, just say "what did you want me to do for two months whilst I waited to start? Be unemployed? If you had let me start earlier I'd have not taken that filler job".

But like Dougal says, "what goes around, comes around".
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  #31  
Old 27.08.2011, 07:18
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

Is there no way to push up the start date of the December job? Usually in our cases, the companies want us to start sooner rather than later...
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  #32  
Old 27.08.2011, 07:32
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

Today we'll have a talk on ethics by a man from thuthex.

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Sorry YES for what?
Groaned only the one who was attacking me! I had the impression i stole that job from him
You asked for opinions. You got one you didn't like, so you groaned. Very grown up.
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Who mentioned lying ?...
If you start a job as a permanent employee with no intention of remaining for more than a few months, in my view that is intent to deceive. Pretty much the moral equivalent of lying. I don't know what level the OP works at - perhaps they're just a commodity that can be easily switched in and out, in which case it won't matter much. If not, then the cost to their temporary employer is not negligible. When I was recruiting for a staff position, the most we could do in day, realistically, was 4 interviews, as we still had our day jobs to do. It is frustrating enough when you make an offer and they turn you down. It's highly frustrating when it doesn't work out during the probabationary period, but you accept it. If someone deliberately sets out to abuse the probationary period... well, that's beyond the pale. If I found out, I might well attempt to seek redress for the cost of filling the position again.

One other scenario. What if you like the first job and decide to stay? Then you've screwed around the second employer.

No. The only ethical approach - if the job is not of a switchable, high staff-turnover nature - is to decide which job you want, and take that. If you can't start the second job until December, and you can't afford to not work - then take the first job and stick with it.
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  #33  
Old 27.08.2011, 08:46
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

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Yes it is unethical if you are doing this intentionally. It is not the fault of your potential employer that you were badly treated by a previous employer. Tread carefully or you may end up with no job at all.

AYB
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Sorry YES for what?
Groaned only the one who was attacking me! I had the impression i stole that job from him
Where was the attack? You asked if it was unethical (see the title) and AYB said he thought it was. Seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to say. And then he advises you to be careful because, as we English say, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". So you may feel happy that your bush is full right now but you may end up with it being empty (sic ). I think it was a reasonable point of view, solid advice, take it or leave it.

I think that's why you got a negative reaction for the groan....don't ask on here if you don't expect both sides of the argument to be put forward and debated. Read and digest what is said and make your choice.

Anyway, aside from the ethics (which I truly don't have an opinion about, business is not especially ethical at the moment)....don't you think that any future HR manager of any skill is going to realise from your CV what happened in this two month spell? And don't you also think that when you start Job #2 in this little theatre of disaster you are creating for yourself, they will ask for a reference letter (Zeugniss) from your current employer (Employer #1) and notice what you did? And what will you do if they say...."Dear Mr/Mrs Guidette.....can you explain what level of loyalty you have to any employer?"......there is no groan button in most interview rooms

Of course, you could always just miss it off your CV and not tell people.....you seem to "have form" in this area.

In other words, I think AYB was right....there is a reasonably high chance that this will backfire, so I suggest you be careful
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  #34  
Old 27.08.2011, 10:40
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

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Transition I also felt AYB was bit too harsh on me!
You asked a question. AYB answered you in a relatively neutral tone. You groaned him because it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

If you think that is harsh then no wonder you think your current employer is mean.

Good luck in your future employment. Maybe there'll be somewhere that will not hurt your delicate ego.
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Old 27.08.2011, 11:57
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

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You asked a question. AYB answered you in a relatively neutral tone. You groaned him because it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

If you think that is harsh then no wonder you think your current employer is mean.

Good luck in your future employment. Maybe there'll be somewhere that will not hurt your delicate ego.
Just as a reminder, it is about job situation that we are discussing here and not how many times I groaned at people or they groaned at me!

Of course I havent made a decision yet, otherwise I wouldn't have created this thread but I expected mature reasonable answers based on previous experience - like many of you have shared with me thanks a lot - and not those just nonsense (you are a liar and you dont deserve the salary!!!)
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  #36  
Old 27.08.2011, 12:10
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

The probation period is there for a reason, it cuts both ways! You might end up liking the job more than you think.
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  #37  
Old 27.08.2011, 12:16
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

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Just as a reminder, it is about job situation that we are discussing here and not how many times I groaned at people or they groaned at me!

Of course I havent made a decision yet, otherwise I wouldn't have created this thread but I expected mature reasonable answers based on previous experience - like many of you have shared with me thanks a lot - and not those just nonsense (you are a liar and you dont deserve the salary!!!)
And, yet, you haven't explained why your proposed course of action is ethical or not. As it stands, it sounds a fair bit like 'Since I've had stuff stolen from me, it's ok for me to go and steal stuff to replace it'.
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  #38  
Old 27.08.2011, 12:20
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

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Just as a reminder, it is about job situation that we are discussing here and not how many times I groaned at people or they groaned at me!

Of course I havent made a decision yet, otherwise I wouldn't have created this thread but I expected mature reasonable answers based on previous experience - like many of you have shared with me thanks a lot - and not those just nonsense (you are a liar and you dont deserve the salary!!!)
Thanks for the reminder....I think that the thread went towards your reaction to explain why you may not get the quality or quantity of "mature, reasonable answers" when you groaned (in a "mature, reasonable" way) the first guy who gave you his perspective.

So forgive us if we highlight your response as part of the reason for the tone of the thread.

However, I agree that passing personal judgements on you might irritate you a little
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  #39  
Old 27.08.2011, 12:27
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

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My previous employers have been real mean to me and I start to think I want to work on my interest and do from now whatever is convenient to me only!
By doing the same to your next employer as your previous employer did to you, your next employer will think of you exactly what you think of your previous employer. If you would keep your previous employer, then your next employer would probably keep you too. But you obviously don't, so they would probably not either.
But that would be just me being logic, maybe you are smarter and can just outsmart everybody. I don't know you so I give you the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 27.08.2011, 12:31
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Re: Jobs Offers vs Ethics

Too late for this piece of advice but...posting your potentially unethical intentions on a public website can be dangerous. The world can be very small when you least expect it. A good friend of mine learned this the hard way last month.

On another note, are you required to produce references from your last two employers? If so you could be left with two not-so-glowing references to produce to your final (December) employers if you intentionally take up the bridging position? Worth enquiring about.

Good luck
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