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  #41  
Old 28.08.2011, 21:17
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

Could working for a private bank which has third world dictators for clients be considered immoral? I think so.These banks pay good salaries to their employees but think of all the sufering that is behind this money.
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  #42  
Old 29.08.2011, 10:04
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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Could working for a private bank which has third world dictators for clients be considered immoral? I think so.These banks pay good salaries to their employees but think of all the sufering that is behind this money.
Can a supermarket that sells to a murderer be considered un-ethical?

Can a doctor that treats a rapist be considered un-ethical?

Can a arms manufacturer that sells to a neutral country be considered un-ethical?

Can a pharmaceutical company that sells to an African despot be considered un-ethical?
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  #43  
Old 29.08.2011, 11:46
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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I have some questions that has been popping up in my mind a lot lately:
  • What do people feel doing a job that they know that the ethical and moral value behind the business is not right ie. money laundering, underpaid employees in 3rd world countries, underage kids working,...etc?
As long as I am not breaking any laws I don't care.
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    Does your existence and having a good life with your family become a higher priority than thinking about how moral the business you're working for is?
Yes
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    Do you feel you're doing the right thing and ignoring the fact that other people are suffering for you to have such a life?
Yes as there are no absolutes in life.
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    Have you ever thought to give your job / job offer up as you refuse to be a part of such businesses?
  • Again as long as I am not breaking any laws I don't care.
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    Do you really sleep well at night knowing you're a part of this sort of businesses?
  • Yes, like a baby. Everyone contributes directly or indirectly to such businesses.
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  #44  
Old 29.08.2011, 12:23
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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Corbets: Groan....

Eh? What was that for?
Didn't groan, but my 5 raps: The DRC has been a mess for a long long long time. Long before the civil war "started" in 199-whatsit. Indeed I would argue that it was in a heck of mess when the Belgians were running and set it up for failure by committing all sorts of atrocities.

The role of coltan is incidental. If it wasn't that it would be something else. I found the video somewhat irrelevant and misleading in this respect. The clear implication is that Apple (rather than computer makers, as this is used for other computer chips as well) is fuelling this war - which it isn't.

As ever when things are over-simplified they are usually wrong.

Unless you live in a self-sustaining eco-bubble, you are unlikely to find anything that isn't tainted in some way, shape or form by something that someone somewhere will label as wrong and/or unethical. Such is the society that we now live in or, rather, drives demand...
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  #45  
Old 29.08.2011, 12:38
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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Didn't groan, but my 5 raps: The DRC has been a mess for a long long long time. Long before the civil war "started" in 199-whatsit. Indeed I would argue that it was in a heck of mess when the Belgians were running and set it up for failure by committing all sorts of atrocities.

The role of coltan is incidental. If it wasn't that it would be something else. I found the video somewhat irrelevant and misleading in this respect. The clear implication is that Apple (rather than computer makers, as this is used for other computer chips as well) is fuelling this war - which it isn't.

As ever when things are over-simplified they are usually wrong.

Unless you live in a self-sustaining eco-bubble, you are unlikely to find anything that isn't tainted in some way, shape or form by something that someone somewhere will label as wrong and/or unethical. Such is the society that we now live in or, rather, drives demand...
Yeah, what he said. I use the thanks/groans as agree/disagree - though I'm well aware that some people take them more personally than that.
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  #46  
Old 29.08.2011, 12:39
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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Didn't groan, but my 5 raps: The DRC has been a mess for a long long long time. Long before the civil war "started" in 199-whatsit. Indeed I would argue that it was in a heck of mess when the Belgians were running and set it up for failure by committing all sorts of atrocities.

The role of coltan is incidental. If it wasn't that it would be something else. I found the video somewhat irrelevant and misleading in this respect. The clear implication is that Apple (rather than computer makers, as this is used for other computer chips as well) is fuelling this war - which it isn't.

As ever when things are over-simplified they are usually wrong.

Unless you live in a self-sustaining eco-bubble, you are unlikely to find anything that isn't tainted in some way, shape or form by something that someone somewhere will label as wrong and/or unethical. Such is the society that we now live in or, rather, drives demand...
Then why is it that people blame diamonds for so much harm in this world?

I know exactly what youre saying. And I agree. But after doing business in Africa for so long I find it completely amazing that some companies get bad raps while others dont.

Apple is just a very good example. They are the largest user of coltan by a very large margin, mainly due to their product mix. So do I blame them directly? No.... But do they do anything to make sure their source of coltan isnt using slave labour? Nope.... Do they know about it? Of course!

Do I still use apple products? Of course!

A while back on the EF there was a thread blaming diamonds for the problems in Zimbabwe. Of course thats false. There is one guy there to blame. Yet we blame the diamonds (which make up less that 0.5% of the regimes funding). In Congo there is not one guy to blame. There is no one in control. So who pulls the strings? Who ever brings the money. And right now its the Chinese.

Most of you who have made it to DRC have seen the slave labor on the side of the road with one Chinese man yelling at them all to work harder. So who is to blame? Youre telling me thats normal because Leopold reneged on his agreements with the local kings 100 years ago?

If thats the case, then why are Cecil John Rhodes sins used as a template for fixing the problems of South Africa, and Botswana? DRC is 40 years behind them.

Companies demand reliable sources of raw materials, especially when they outsource production to China. They dont demand ethical sourcing though. Except for diamonds of course, and thats why it sticks out for me.
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Old 29.08.2011, 12:44
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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Yes, like a baby. Everyone contributes directly or indirectly to such businesses.
Me too! Which actually means I wake up about three times a night

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Everyone contributes directly or indirectly to such businesses.
yeah, but already quite some time ago, really clever people have discovered the miracles of percentage calculation.
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  #48  
Old 29.08.2011, 12:54
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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Then why is it that people blame diamonds for so much harm in this world?
Because as with most things in life it is much easier to blame things than people and much easier to blame faceless people far away than people close by and much easier to blame people close by than examine one's own blame. It is called...................

Human nature. Welcome to the grubby little patch of the world genetic pool that we call home. Feel free to contribute to the clean-up exercise.
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  #49  
Old 29.08.2011, 12:55
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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Most of you who have made it to DRC have seen the slave labor on the side of the road with one Chinese man yelling at them all to work harder. So who is to blame? Youre telling me thats normal because Leopold reneged on his agreements with the local kings 100 years ago?
No. Leopold's agreements had little to do with it. I'm talking about the genocide and mutilation that the Belgians in the Congo were carrying out... how to put it politely... with zeal, which set the template for all subsequent regimes and allows situations like that currently existing to evolve, with the country lurching violently from one dictator to the next. You cannot look at any nation and randomly ignore its history and state that Apple started the civil war.

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Companies demand reliable sources of raw materials, especially when they outsource production to China. They dont demand ethical sourcing though. Except for diamonds of course, and thats why it sticks out for me.
Because everyone wears these (left), and few those (right)


Diamonds are "luxury", while computers feed the industrial machine.

I've no idea if this is true, but I'd guess that computer chips used by business probably outnumber those in private use - maybe not by much, but it is business in general that drives the demand.

Diamonds, however, have a glamour associated with them and are an easy target - a bit like Apple really.

Anyway, diamonds are just one example, as you know, of "unfairness" or rather double-standards in business/in the world.
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  #50  
Old 29.08.2011, 13:03
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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...

A while back on the EF there was a thread blaming diamonds for the problems in Zimbabwe. Of course thats false. There is one guy there to blame. Yet we blame the diamonds (which make up less that 0.5% of the regimes funding).

...
You are referring to this thread. Have just re-read through it and nowhere can I see anyone - including myself - "blaming diamonds for the problems in Zimbabwe". That would, at best be utterly niave and at worst, downright stoopid...
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Old 29.08.2011, 13:12
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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You are referring to this thread. Have just re-read through it and nowhere can I see anyone - including myself - "blaming diamonds for the problems in Zimbabwe". That would, at best be utterly niave and at worst, downright stoopid...
Thats because you dont know anything about the wording used in the thread.

By labeling a countries diamonds as "blood diamonds" you are saying that they are the main source of funding for a war.... Thats a fact. Ask anyone who buys diamonds in Africa. We abide by the KPC and know the rules and the wording. The second you use the term "blood diamond" you have laid blame. Sorry isha....

The number one source of money for the Mugabe regime is still NGO's... Diamonds keep more locals (who have no political connection at all) employed than they hurt. If you call them or label them as blood diamonds then you shut down the small guys in the country and not the government.

Anyone who spells stupid as "stoopid" must know what that really means
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Old 29.08.2011, 13:17
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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Thats because you dont know anything about the wording used in the thread.

By labeling a countries diamonds as "blood diamonds" you are saying that they are the main source of funding for a war.... Thats a fact. Ask anyone who buys diamonds in Africa. We abide by the KPC and know the rules and the wording. The second you use the term "blood diamond" you have laid blame. Sorry isha....

The number one source of money for the Mugabe regime is still NGO's... Diamonds keep more locals (who have no political connection at all) employed than they hurt. If you call them or label them as blood diamonds then you shut down the small guys in the country and not the government.

Anyone who spells stupid as "stoopid" must know what that really means
Man, please give me a sensible argument and comments...
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Old 29.08.2011, 13:23
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Man, please give me a sensible argument and comments...
If my comments are over your head I am sorry
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Old 29.08.2011, 13:31
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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If my comments are over your head I am sorry


Suggest you get back and stay on topic...
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Old 29.08.2011, 13:39
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

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The number one source of money for the Mugabe regime is still NGO's... Diamonds keep more locals (who have no political connection at all) employed than they hurt. If you call them or label them as blood diamonds then you shut down the small guys in the country and not the government.
I'm not saying it's not so, but that does strike me as odd.

Surely the poor family man who goes out his spade every morning and digs diamonds in his back yard is more the exception than the rule. Surely most diamond mines are run by big corporations. And in a place like Zimbabwe, are there any big corporations that are not in bed with Mugabe?

(I'm asking, not saying)
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Old 29.08.2011, 14:01
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I'm not saying it's not so, but that does strike me as odd.

Surely the poor family man who goes out his spade every morning and digs diamonds in his back yard is more the exception than the rule. Surely most diamond mines are run by big corporations. And in a place like Zimbabwe, are there any big corporations that are not in bed with Mugabe?

(I'm asking, not saying)
Thats a great question. OK, kimberlite isnt actually a "mine" in most of Africa. Its typically just a huge pit of mud. And in larger diamond producing countries its the bottom of rivers or dried river bed. Diamonds form when carbon is shot out of a volcanic shoot at a very specific speed, which is why they are rare.

When the lava flows from the pipe it forms river channels.

So there arent very many specific mines so to speak, and most of them are controlled by the state government agencies such as MIBA etc.

The locals though dont normally work there. We buy stones from the towns people who clean the river beds. So they section off a piece of the river and start digging. Or they "straighten" the river from a snake like channel to a very straight shot river. And then dry out the river bed to dig.

No one owns the river.

So you typically get entire towns who go out an dig for stones during the dry season to make extra money. All of the towns people find one of the elders whom they trust. They give him all of their stones and they pool some cash to buy him a plane ticket to Kinshasa or Harare and he goes around town to find buyers for his stones. He then flies back with his $1mn to $5mn of cash (in his pocket!) and gives each of the local prospectors their cut.

Either that or we send a buyer in to see the stones. The government has nothing to do with it. Until the stones reach the CEEC the government has no idea of the stones. Also, the govt only cares about large stones. So if these small guys find 15 stones that average 0.15carats each, the government doesnt care. But if they find a 50carat VVS1? That miner will be killed and the stone will disappear. gem quality stones make up 15% of stones. large +5carat stones make up about 1% of these. So 0.015% of all stones are typically worth stealing.

Does that make sense?
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Old 29.08.2011, 22:28
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As long as I am not breaking any laws I don't care.
Yes
Yes as there are no absolutes in life.
  • Again as long as I am not breaking any laws I don't care.
  • Yes, like a baby. Everyone contributes directly or indirectly to such businesses.
I'm sure that also many Nazi soldiers in concentration camps where thinking like you. It's always all about "me me me"...isn't it?
Remember that what goes around always comes around...often when you least expect it.


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Old 29.08.2011, 22:48
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

Living in the western world we all shy away from the realities of pretty much everything. Why just ask about an 'Arbeitsgeber'? Almost everything we buy, unless it is 'Schwiezer Bio', comes from an amount of blood, sweat and tears we don't except/acknwoeldge. Cheap clothes, cheap meat. The real price is always paid.
Yes, asking after the habits of an employer, perhaps choosing an employer, or discounting one, on the basis of it's environmental/ humanitarian credentials is worthy, but living a humane life is more so.
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Old 29.08.2011, 22:55
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

Monsanto's main headquarters is here. They hire a lot of people in my career field. I've heard amazing stories about how well they treat their employees, but I would only work there if I had no other choice and needed a way to feed my children. I think everyone's limits for company's morals are different.
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Old 30.08.2011, 08:44
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Re: Ethical and moral values of businesses while employed

Well, it must be really difficult to be an abbatoir or butcher. Or a soldier.

Years ago I once had a temporary assignment as a nurse working in a private clinic "with a licence to do abortions". I soon found out that 99% of the patients there were only there for abortion . After a period trying to reconcile my conscience with the work I cut short the assignment after 1 month.

Must be difficult for employers to find people to work in above mentioned jobs.
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