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Old 22.11.2011, 10:41
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Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

Hi all, hope you're doing well. The company I work for offered me a new position (actually a promotion), and after some discussions, it seems we cannot agree on the yearly salary. This is why I'd like to ask you to have a look at the Job description, and tell me what do think...

Here is an overview...

Global Process & Project Manager
In this function you ensure the successful implementation of retail operations relevant projects and processes for different sales companies.
You will be entrusted with the following main duties:
• Managing and participating global retail projects
• Managing and supporting communication to IT and consequently ensure that existing and new software applications meet business requirements
• Standardizing and continuously improving key retail processes to achieve operational excellence & efficiency and maximise customer experience

Requirements:
• High level of education - minimum Bachelor’s Degree
• Ideally 3 - 5 years of work experience in process or project management preferably within retail
• Strong technical and leadership qualities with good knowledge of customer service and sales
• Excellent interpersonal skills, to be able to cooperate with numerous multicultural contacts
• Willingness to travel extensively – up to 50%
• Fluent in English and ideally German (any additional language is an advantage)
• Very good IT-User knowledge (MS-Office, SAP, POS Software)


I've 10 years working on IT projects, PMP certification, speak 4 languages (but no german ), master degree. I asked for CHF 125.000 per year, and they said, it's too much. The company I work for is a multinational retail company with more than 25.000 employees and EUR 3Bn turnover..

I think I'm quite ok with the salary I asked for, even some friend told me a salaray could be around CHF 140.000...

What do you think? This is really important for me because I don't get this job I'll look for another position outside the company.

Thanks a lot for your help!
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Old 22.11.2011, 10:46
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

3bn divided by 25,000 is 120,000. Easy.
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Old 22.11.2011, 10:50
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

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3bn divided by 25,000 is 120,000. Easy.
Good argumentation :-) Give me my piece of the cake
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Old 22.11.2011, 11:17
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

I wouldnt get out of bed for less than CHF 250,000
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Old 22.11.2011, 11:21
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

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I wouldnt get out of bed for less than CHF 250,000
Uhhhh?????
Don't u think it's too much? I think this is the salaray of the finance director here...
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Old 22.11.2011, 11:58
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

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Uhhhh?????
Don't u think it's too much? I think this is the salaray of the finance director here...
He was joking.......

One note:
How much time you work for the company? You should know what are the patterns of salaries there.

I think straight salaries will not help you much because:

I have a higher salary than a friend but i have 20 days of vacations.
He has 25 and the company with relocation offered more 5 free days. Also the company pays relocations costs and deposit for a new rental.


In the end maybe i am not earning more.

Back to your job they say ideally german. I would ask how much can you earn after 2 years after you got B2 certification in german (and if they pay the costs of learning german).


In other hand, they say 50% travelling what is bad for learning german.

If you really like the company and you will be operations manager you need to evaluate internal and not in the market.
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Old 22.11.2011, 12:11
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

It also heavily depends on the industry you are working in.

For the role you mentioned below, in 4 different industries e.g. Pharma, finance, tourism and logistics they are all offering very different salaries no matter what your qualifications.
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Old 22.11.2011, 12:21
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

We have a sticky on this thread

Taxes - Advisors/Accountants / Cantonal Offices / ZH Tax forms / Expat US Taxes

http://www.lohnrechner.bfs.admin.ch/...d.aspx?lang=de
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Old 22.11.2011, 12:23
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

I have been here now for 2 years, my impression is that there is now a growing downwards trend in the salaries being offered (just an opinion, not necessarily a fact), the employers also seem to be becoming more choosy especially with regard to languages.

I have often heard it being said that Switzerland is a few years behind other European countries in how they operate, if my opinions are right this would be substantiated, The UK pharma industry started a process of lowering salaries and asking for more effort 5 if not more years ago.

Also the other thing to consider is exchange rates, 4 years ago to get expats they would have factored an exchange rate of 2.5Chf's to the £, now at 1.4 they don't have to offer so much to still provide attractive looking salaries to people outsite Switzerland.
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Old 22.11.2011, 13:01
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

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I have been here now for 2 years, my impression is that there is now a growing downwards trend in the salaries being offered (just an opinion, not necessarily a fact), the employers also seem to be becoming more choosy especially with regard to languages.

Also the other thing to consider is exchange rates, 4 years ago to get expats they would have factored an exchange rate of 2.5Chf's to the £, now at 1.4 they don't have to offer so much to still provide attractive looking salaries to people outsite Switzerland.
Agree on the first - getting this feedback from a lot of headhunters as well - range for reasonable salary (with the right company, etc.) could have easily been 30-40k CHF higher a few years ago vs. now for my profile.

Not sure about the latter... I'm sure it's how hiring companies might try to sell it, but has cost of living in Switzerland actually changed that much with the change in FX rate? I suspect not.
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Old 22.11.2011, 13:43
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

Thanks a lot for your inputs.

I forgot to mention that I've been working for the company already here in CH for 1 and 1/2 year. I came here from abroad (not with the expat agreement) for a "temporary" project and then they offer me to stay here 100%. I have roughly idea of the salaries to company uses to pay, and that's what really surprises me. I think I'm not asking for a fortune according to the JD.

I also think a position with 50% of the time travelling must be payed very well as somehow there should be a way to compensate the time you're not at home...

Let's see what happens...

THanks again!
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Old 22.11.2011, 15:19
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

Sorry but I also think 125K is too much

You have a master's degree, speak 4 languages etc. but that is not what they are asking. The profile is pretty average, and asking for 3-5 years work experience means that they are probably willing to pay 100-110K max.

Also the fact that you are travelling up to 50% is not a reason to expect mountains of money. Some people like this kind of lifestyle, others don't. Most companies will pay a small premium, but don't expect them to fully compensate your lack of private life. Besides, they will also pay for your meals etc. when you are away, so in the end you do benefit financially.
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Old 22.11.2011, 15:53
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

Hey Wakey, good point... thanks a lot for your inputs.
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Old 22.11.2011, 15:59
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

Perhaps you'd like to tell us the range they're offering for the role?
How far is it away from your 125k?
Is there a bonus?
Are there other benefits?
For the 125k, how have you justified this to the organisation in terms of your value in the marketplace? Have you found an equivalent position paying this that you can relate them to?
Have you asked them what you'd need to do to justify 125k in their eyes?
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Old 22.11.2011, 16:02
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

aargh I wanted to edit my post but got caught in a DB-error.

I wanted to add that, before you negotiate a deal which involves a lot of travel, make sure that you know all details of the travel policy, and continue from there.

i.e. will you get a company credit card, can you choose your own flight routes/times, is travel time counted as work, which classes can you fly, can you use air miles and hotel points privately, do you get a daily allowance, are weekend expenses covered, can you compensate overtime abroad etc.
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Old 22.11.2011, 16:18
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

It would seem to me that P&G would have salary scales, grade levels, etc already in place. Is this not so? If they do than the grade of your job should have an equivalent salary.

The fact that you have 10 yrs experience and speak 4 languages and have a masters' is not their "problem" in that they didn't ask for those qualification. In fact, I'm surprise they are even offering you this job as normally you'd be over qualified for it.

The salary is set to the job, not your extra qualifications. What was their original offer and what is their counter offer?

ETA: I was also caught in DB Error. Wakey got there before me.
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Old 22.11.2011, 16:32
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

Quote:
Also the other thing to consider is exchange rates, 4 years ago to get expats they would have factored an exchange rate of 2.5Chf's to the £, now at 1.4 they don't have to offer so much to still provide attractive looking salaries to people outsite Switzerland.
Quote:
Not sure about the latter... I'm sure it's how hiring companies might try to sell it, but has cost of living in Switzerland actually changed that much with the change in FX rate? I suspect not.
This statement has nothing to do with cost of living either having increased or decreased. The fact is to attract expats previously the salary would have been factored in some way by the exchange rate. It is very simple maths, 4 years ago an equivalant Swiss salary of £50K GBP would have cost the Swiss an offer of 125k Chf's, now it would only be 75k Chf's. When people plan to work abroad I am not sure they truely factor in the higher cost of living between countries, that can easily be seen on this forum by the number of 'Switzerlanded' threads.

The big point for me is that with many other economies under pressure, higher taxes, higher unemployment,lower standards of living etc why should the Swiss not take full advantage and still offer a very good standard of living but pay less for it. I think in many ways the bubble has burst here for all but a few people.
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Old 22.11.2011, 16:45
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

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Perhaps you'd like to tell us the range they're offering for the role?
How far is it away from your 125k?
Is there a bonus?
Are there other benefits?
For the 125k, how have you justified this to the organisation in terms of your value in the marketplace? Have you found an equivalent position paying this that you can relate them to?
Have you asked them what you'd need to do to justify 125k in their eyes?
Thanks for your feedback! I don't know how far are they, they only said "your expectations are above our range of salary". It's a preliminary negotiation...They will come back with an offer in the next days
I asked for 125 + and the same benefits I currently have, like credit card, phone, 25 days of holidays + insurance.
And yes, I told them about my salary expectations, and why I think it's fair...
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Old 22.11.2011, 16:48
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

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aargh I wanted to edit my post but got caught in a DB-error.

I wanted to add that, before you negotiate a deal which involves a lot of travel, make sure that you know all details of the travel policy, and continue from there.

i.e. will you get a company credit card, can you choose your own flight routes/times, is travel time counted as work, which classes can you fly, can you use air miles and hotel points privately, do you get a daily allowance, are weekend expenses covered, can you compensate overtime abroad etc.
I had this error as well
Because of my current position I have to travel and be abroad for some projects (let's say 20% of my time) and I know pretty well the travel expenses. I've to say that they are really good, the only thing is you cannot compensate overtime abroad "officially", that means, it's up to you and your boss, which actually is not an issue.
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Old 22.11.2011, 16:52
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Re: Job offer - Please help with salary discussion...

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It would seem to me that P&G would have salary scales, grade levels, etc already in place. Is this not so? If they do than the grade of your job should have an equivalent salary.

The fact that you have 10 yrs experience and speak 4 languages and have a masters' is not their "problem" in that they didn't ask for those qualification. In fact, I'm surprise they are even offering you this job as normally you'd be over qualified for it.

The salary is set to the job, not your extra qualifications. What was their original offer and what is their counter offer?

ETA: I was also caught in DB Error. Wakey got there before me.
I got your point, very clear. Yep, this company also uses the hay scales, and I think that's the reason behind the first "NO" in our salary discussion. There was no original offer. This is an internal promotion (I have to rencognize it is being handled in a very informal way) the chief of the department came to me, told me about the position and I said "yes, why not, let's have a chat with HR"
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